Christian: Convicted vs Condemned (Jesus Christ, Moses, Earth, salvation, incarnation)

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

However, before I go to bed, I'll explain the view of salvation I'm getting the jist of. From what I gather, you view us as having sinned, and this sin imparts guilt on us.

Not quite. Yes I've sinned. The sin itself doesn't impart the guilt so much as my conscience tells me I did wrong.

Originally Posted by No*s

God is just and true to His word and must hold us accountable for our guilt.

No, but He can. He can also forgive without holding us accountable.

Originally Posted by No*s

The only way to atone for this sin was death, so He sends Christ to atone for it, so that He can open up a path to salvation we couldn't earn. In so doing, Christ did all the work, and we need only accept it.

Sort of. I think?? I think Christ DID die to atone for sin. I know we cannot earn eternal salvation. I know that by believing Jesus died for my sin and was resurrected, I will have that eternal salvation.

G'night, No*s

[No*s]

We may be on similar tacks indeed .

The forgiveness of sins is easy. God wouldn't have even become man if it was something that God couldn't do without some legal sacrifice. The act itself is an act of forgiveness. Instead, Christ became a man so as to banish the consequences of sin on our point. As the Ancien Christian hymn goes "Christ has trampled down death by death."

I thought there for a bit, you were arguing a legalistic view of salvation . Glad it isn't true.

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

I thought there for a bit, you were arguing a legalistic view of salvation

Nope- at least that was not my intent!

Thanks for the discussion, No*s

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

Nope- at least that was not my intent!

Thanks for the discussion, No*s

Welcome. Have some frubals

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by No*s

Welcome. Have some frubals

Thanks... frubals to you too, buddy

[Steve]

I agree with your first post snowbear

No*s and I have been discussing the very issue you are both discussing now in,
The Purpose of Christ's Sacrifice

[oracle]

Originally Posted by No*s

I don't thnk either one is applicable Snowbear .

Sin is a disease, and good works are medicine. Christ came, and in the incarnation brought God down to man. This wasn't because God has trouble forgiving, but because God has given us an irrevocable gift: freewill, and we had separated ourselves from Him and thus, damaged the image of God we have within us. The only way to heal this was for Christ to become man and bring the divine into contact with the material, and thus unite them.

In this view, we don't need to be "forgiven" as much as have sin "remitted." Both are valid translations of the Greek word aphiimi, which is translated "sin." It also fits in well with St. Paul's admonitions against legalism .

You know I haven't actually studied much about Eastern Orthodox. I was never taught this as a baptist/protestant Christian. So this is obviously apart of the Eastern Orthodox theology?

[oracle]

I really like what No*s has been explaining, it seems like a very rational and logical interpretation. I have a question for you snowbear. Because Jesus died for our sins are we no longer held responsible for our actions? I think grace and the law are two different things. If we live by the flesh, then we live by the law, and if we live according to the spirit, we have grace. I think that Jesus did not die so that we would live according to the flesh, but so we could live according to the spirit or the image of God. If we cannot stop sinning, why would Jesus tell others to sin no more?
I think it depends on your definition of sin. Where does evil originate? Jesus said evil comes out of the heart of man, meaning that evil is within. If you take a look at the motive of all sin, you will understand why lying would be just the same as murder in God's eyes. It's our motives that make a sin a sin, and the motive or hidden agenda for every sin is the same. Selfish desires and ambitions gives birth to sin. I think this was the problem with the pharisees and the priests: their motives were always selfish. They lived for themselves without caring for others. It's not the works that make a sin a sin, it's the motives. These pharisees showed good works, but they had selfish intentions and motives behind their works. I think we need to cleanse our minds and our hearts to become "perfect". When we clean the inside, the outside naturally becomes clean, and is no longer held by the law but by grace. (I dunno this was my viewpoint on the matter when I was Christian).

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by oracle

Because Jesus died for our sins are we no longer held responsible for our actions?

No. That's the "conviction" part. Our desire to do right by Jesus "convicts" us when we do sin... whatever your definition of sin is.

Grace is the part that keeps us from being condemned for our sin.

I agree that selfishness itself not only leads to sin, but also is a sin. I'm the most selfish person I know and it has caused more hurt than I can possibly forgive myself for. I guess I just have to count on God to somehow change my heart, 'cause I sure can't do it on my own

[oracle]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

No. That's the "conviction" part. Our desire to do right by Jesus "convicts" us when we do sin... whatever your definition of sin is.

Grace is the part that keeps us from being condemned for our sin.

I agree that selfishness itself not only leads to sin, but also is a sin. I'm the most selfish person I know and it has caused more hurt than I can possibly forgive myself for. I guess I just have to count on God to somehow change my heart, 'cause I sure can't do it on my own

I think its all about knowing what real love is, the love that God and Jesus gave, and emulating that love towards others, even when people hurt you. Forgiving yourself is necassary in order to heal. I think when you really try hard to dedicate yourself to reading and following God's word, and when you pray to God, He will help you. I think it's difficult to do it on your own, but it becomes simple when you're fully united with God.