Christian: Are Worship Teams scriptural??? (Jesus, ritual, reject, Moses)

[No*s]

OK, at the thread owner's request, the same-faith debate is expanded to just "Christian."

[true blood]

Originally Posted by Tzeitel

Many times it is lead by women, who are NOT to lead in the congregation, or teach over men.

This is incorrect. There is no male or female in Jesus Christ, nor bond or free, Jew or Gentile. But this is off topic.

Many have different forms of worship, different groups, different denominations, some none at all. Such diversity of ritual among believers leads me to believe not all can be in alignment with the Truth. It's probably critically important imo to know and do the true form of worship.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation if of the believer. But the hour comes and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: For the Father seekth such to worship him.

God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Ok so in John 4:22 Jesus basicly says that everyone worships, however the question is are we worshipping rightly? Then he goes on and basicly says that the true worshippers will worship Him not by candles, no altars, not by bible reading, and not by singing, BUT BY THE SPIRIT. You can take a look at all the different groups of religions and see that the forms they use for worship have been and continue to use candles and altars like for instance the catholic church. Many christian groups feel that bible reading and teaching are worship and even singing. But they very person they say is their Lord, Jesus, says those means are not the correct worship. Jesus says that the true worship shall be "...in spirit and in truth.." Note, spirit and truth, double nouns used. Two nouns used but one thing meants. The double noun being used to doubly emphasize that it is spirtually true, or truely spiritual. More reason to consider what Jesus was talking about.

Matthew 15 gives a good account of worship, but again it is not true worship. Matthew 15:6: Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching doctrines the commandments of men."

You see the worship looked real. Probably was given credit as a form of worship. But what did the Lord say?

Mark 7:5 descripes Vain Worship. Usually man is worshipped more than God. Been going on a long time.

So throughout the bible there are many forms of worship shown but yet none of them were the correct way because Jesus Christ had said the hour cometh(future at that time) when the true ones will worship in truth. This would then be the true form of what and how to worship God. This implies that there was no true form of worship before the "said hour" Jesus foretold. None of the singing, reading, chanting, candle lighting, altars, music playing, imagies etc.. qualified, in the eyes of God, as true worship. Because none of it was in spirit and in truth. It's because one had to be born-again of God's Spirit. True worship is impossible without it. And to worship by the spirit you operate a power of the holy spirit. The manifestation of the spirit which produces the true worship is speaking in tongues. And there are verses to back this up.

I Corinthians 14:2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God..."

Think about it though. The essence of worship is to communicate with God. And speaking to God in truth and spirit is a two way street. You talk to him and he talks to you. That is the essence of worshipping. The only difference between speaking in tongues and speaking say in English is that when one says, "I post on religiousforums" one has to think, move their lips, tongue, throat. You formulated the words and pushed them out. But when one speaks in tongues you do not think the words you speak. God gives the words to your spirit and you formulate them on your lips. You do not think the words but they are there when you move your lips, throat and tongue. What you speak is God's business, but that you speak is your business.

[Scuba Pete]

I truly believe you missed the point of John 4:22. It's not they didn't know HOW to worship, it's that they didn't know WHO to worship (he was talking to Samaritans).

I don't see Matthew 15 mentioning "worship". Acts of righteousness and prayer are mentioned, but not worship.

Mark 7 deals with eating and not with worship.

Now I Corinthians 14 IS about meeting together, ostensibly for worship!

I Corinthians 14:26 What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, two--or at the most three--should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God. 29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.

Epesians 5:19. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 3:15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Highlights are mine. BTW, prophecy here is what we refer to as preaching... it is different from revelation which is also mentioned.

[Tzeitel]

This is incorrect. There is no male or female in Jesus Christ, nor bond or free, Jew or Gentile

This portion of scripture is referring to salvation- NOT leadership roles. You are taking this scripture way out of context.

Please explain 1 Tim 9-15, if you believe that God sees no difference in the sexes: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

[Tzeitel]

you can't really use 1 Corinthians 14 as HOW to do something because 1 Corinthians is a REBUKE- how NOT to do something- and tongues are clearly NOT in use today.

[Scuba Pete]

But still,

we have no scriptural references that disallow worship teams.

[Tzeitel]

No we don't have scripture that disallow worship teams- but we do have scriptures that disallow certain things- like emotionalism in worship, wordly music, a fleshly beat, women leading etc. If a worship team is solely people who lead the congregation in singing godly hymns that glorify and honor the Lord Jesus Christ then by all means- as long as it is composed of professed believers who follow Gods will.

[Scuba Pete]

like emotionalism in worship, wordly music, a fleshly beat,

Really??? Trot these out for us!

[true blood]

Originally Posted by Tzeitel

This portion of scripture is referring to salvation- NOT leadership roles. You are taking this scripture way out of context.

Please explain 1 Tim 9-15, if you believe that God sees no difference in the sexes: In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Sorry mods this is off-topic but I must respond because it's disrespectful to say woman cannot teach in the true church. The reality in the body of christ is that there are no gender roles. Everyone is equal, special and worthy. Verses like Tim 9 have been translated and taught poorly. It's highly unlikely that Jesus Christ, at least his character we read in the bible, would ever silence a woman that teaches about believing in him and loving others like he did. Israeli armies have been led by women. Some women in the bible even had the authority and status to correct some apostles.

[keevelish]

whether or not you think it is disrespectul doesn't make your interpretation true. I am myself a woman and I find the true interpretation of that verse that women are not to preach in a congregation or teach men spiritual things. Look in the Bible though, it says women can teach other women and children, but not men. I am in no way offended by this teaching so it is most certainly not disrespectful. I respect and honor my God and seek to bring him glory by RIGHTLY DIVIDING scripture. The Bible (king james) is translated correctly and is God's word. If you think that it is mistranslated, then it seems to me that you don't really believe that God's word is infallible and the end to all things.