400 + Kids Taken From Texas FLDS Compound (elders, LDS, marriage, God)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by texan1

Allowing a man to marry multiple women is not a matter of religious freedom. It is just plain wrong, especially when the women have no say in the matter....These are not consenting adults. These are oppressive, abusive communities.

I don't believe any marriage contract that is between non-consenting adults should be legal. I agree that it is just plain wrong. If all parties are consenting adults, though, I see it differently. (Not that I'd ever want to live that lifestyle myself.)

There is NO REASON (religious or otherwise) for a man to have 7 wives. If it's a matter of producing more children, that can be accomplished in the same numbers with monogamous couples.

Really? Could you explain how one man married to one woman can father seven children in one year?

I just don't agree with you at all and I find it infuriating that people think this kind of thing falls under "religious freedom".

Would you mind explaining why. Presuming a man and two women all believed in the principle of plural marriage as a religious principle - and voluntarily wished to enter into a marriage contract, why do you find it infuriating that some people would consider it to be a religious freedom? I mean whose business is it really? Provided the man can support both wives and they are good citizens of the community in which they live, I don't understand your "infuriation."

[jonny]

Originally Posted by texan1

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate. I just don't agree with you at all and I find it infuriating that people think this kind of thing falls under "religious freedom".

Polygamy between consenting adults does fall under "religious freedom." Abuse of women and children does not. The abuse should be stopped, and I'm glad that Texas is trying to do something about it. I just want to know that any innocent parents will have their rights protected.

[Reverend Rick]

I'm just glad we did not have another Waco on our hands. Remember the Clinton administration's Janet Reno burning women and children in Texas? I guess killing them was better than abusing them in some folks eyes. Before you jump on me, Janet Reno said she would take full responsibility for her decisions.

[texan1]

"Really? Could you explain how one man married to one woman can father seven children in one year? "

What I mean is 7 women and 7 men could have the same amount of children as 7 women and 1 man. 7 monogamous couples. It's not like there is a shortage of men or something. The population of men to women is roughly 1:1. Why should one man have them all??? :-) This leaves a lot of fellows out who turn into the "Lost Boys" problem.

"Presuming a man and two women all believed in the principle of plural marriage as a religious principle - and voluntarily wished to enter into a marriage contract, why do you find it infuriating that some people would consider it to be a religious freedom?"

Yes. I agree with you on this. But I'm talking about these FLDS sects. I think people wrongly assume that this compound is some sort of recreation of HBO's "Big Love" and that's just not the case. Religion or not, their version of the lifestyle is wrong.

[texan1]

And I agree Jonny that it is up to the authorities now. I hope it is handled carefully.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by texan1

Religion or not, their version of the lifestyle is wrong.

I could not possibly agree more.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by jonny

Then arrest the men, not the women and children.

They haven't arrested the women and children. In fact, 133 women left the compound voluntarily.

I agree that there is no reason polygamy or polyandry should be illegal between consenting adults.

But polygamy is not the crime some of these men are being charged with. The crimes they are being charged with are verbal, physical, and sexual abuses of women and children, which are not defensible modes of religious expression.

[jonny]

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

They haven't arrested the women and children. In fact, 133 women left the compound voluntarily.

They left with their children, which is what I'd expect any parent to do if given the choice. The state is looking for foster families for these children, so I'm assuming that the state doesn't feel these women are fit to be parents. Once the kids are gone, I'd expect that the women will go back to their homes.

Originally Posted by Mr Spinkles

But polygamy is not the crime some of these men are being charged with. The crimes they are being charged with are verbal, physical, and sexual abuses of women and children, which are not defensible modes of religious expression.

Actually, the men haven't been charged with any of those crimes yet. They've been accused of them by the state and the media. I'm curious to see how they will go about pinning the crimes on specific men. Hopefully, if a child or woman has been abused, then they will eventually feel comfortable talking with state investigators about it. I don't see how the state will be able to charge every man in the church without pinning evidence to specific people though.

What laws are there about doing medical examinations on the girls who are in state custody? I think that's the place to start to determine whether or not sexual abuse is rampant. You'd be able to figure it out pretty quick, I assume.