Iranian lesbian denied asylum by Britain.

[Sahar]

Originally Posted by kai

Thanks , but dont get too used to it

Seriously, I am impressed.

[Badran]

Originally Posted by not4me

Badran please, when did I insult you?
I definitely criticized your approach of picking and choosing regarding the Sunnah but by no means I insulted you. This is a part of our disagreement.

I didn't choose to ignore anything. The type of penalty of homosexuality is controversial between the scholars. But by no means this means we appoint ourselves scholars and accept or dismiss this or that hadith, based on our lack of knowledge as lay Muslims and not based on scientific criteria.

Yes, but it is not that controversial. Abu Rashid explained to me that only one of the 4 Imams wasn't in favor of that punishment(i'm not sure but this is what i remember). He also said that the Hadith have met the criteria to be considered a valid Hadith, and that the followers of Muhammad (pbuh) did it.

This is why i don't base my opinions based on scholars opinions alone, i put it in mind, but i must agree with it, after all i'm the one who is going to be held in question for my beliefs and actions.

Scholars are human beings who can make mistakes, sure they know much more than i do in general, but that doesn't mean i should discard my opinion. I only differ with scholars at certain points, for good reasons, and i do all the reading involved and i hear all the explanations provided by scholars as to why they have come to this conclusion, and then i make up my mind.

[kai]

If i may?

It is true that scholars disagree with the nature of punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine stipulation for a worldly punishment.

[Sahar]

Originally Posted by Badran

Yes, but it is not that controversial. Abu Rashid explained to me that only one of the 4 Imams wasn't in favor of that punishment(i'm not sure but this is what i remember). He also said that the Hadith have met the criteria to be considered a valid Hadith, and that the followers of Muhammad (pbuh) did it.

This is why i don't base my opinions based on scholars opinions alone, i put it in mind, but i must agree with it, after all i'm the one who is going to be held in question for my beliefs and actions.

Scholars are human beings who can make mistakes, sure they know much more than i do in general, but that doesn't mean i should discard my opinion. I only differ with scholars at certain points, for good reasons, and i do all the reading involved and i hear all the explanations provided by scholars as to why they have come to this conclusion, and then i make up my mind.

This specific hadith is not my concern more than the approach I have noticed you take generally. As I understand the penalty is controversial. If this specific hadith represents a solid ground recognized by all scholars then there wouldn't be controversy, yet I don't have enough knowledge on this specific hadith.
I don't disagree with the fact that scholars are human beings and they are subjected to mistakes, I don't disagree that we should think about their opinions. But what I understand is as a lay Muslim when it comes to fiqh and disagreed issues in this science, as a Muslim you choose what is more sensible or rational to you. When it comes to a science like the science of hadith, I don't udnderstand how this should be open for the layman. If we left our religion to vain desires from here and there, it will be a real choas.
Criticizing a hadith from its sanad or matn aspects should be scholars job. Sometimes it needs courage to criticize a matn of a hadith that is with strong isnad, but again it's the scholars job. For example, the great scholar Mohammed Al-Ghazali criticized certain ahadith because of their matn which he though it contradicted basic Islamic rules...and I applaud him for this step although he was attacked harshly for this. But in the end he is a man of knowledge, it doesn't mean all what he says is correct but he is qualified.

[Badran]

Originally Posted by kai

If i may?

It is true that scholars disagree with the nature of punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine stipulation for a worldly punishment.

Yes i know. But what Abu Rashid explained to me is that on this topic, the majority agrees.

[Badran]

Originally Posted by not4me

This specific hadith is not my concern more than the approach I have noticed you take generally. As I understand the penalty is controversial. If this specific hadith represents a solid ground recognized by all scholars then there wouldn't be controversy, yet I don't have enough knowledge on this specific hadith.
I don't disagree with the fact that scholars are human beings and they are subjected to mistakes, I don't disagree that we should think about their opinions. But what I understand is as a lay Muslim when it comes to fiqh and disagreed issues in this science, as a Muslim you choose what is more sensible or rational to you. When it comes to a science like the science of hadith, I don't udnderstand how this should be open for the layman. If we left our religion to vain desires from here and there, it will be a real choas.
Criticizing a hadith from its sanad or matn aspects should be scholars job. Sometimes it needs courage to criticize a matn of a hadith that is with strong isnad, but again it's the scholars job. For example, the great scholar Mohammed Al-Ghazali criticized certain ahadith because of their matn which he though it contradicted basic Islamic rules...and I applaud him for this step although he was attacked harshly for this. But in the end he is a man of knowledge, it doesn't mean all what he says is correct but he is qualified.

This is all true. There is two things though:

1) Just because a Hadith's is agreed upon to be valid, and meets all the criteria, doesn't mean that it is 100% assured to be true.

2) I don't base those opinions on desires, i base them on the Quran, the opinions of the scholars, my own personal logic, and then i come to the conclusion.

[Abu Rashid]

Originally Posted by Badran

I meant no i would not try to stop him. Because there is a difference between advising someone and stopping him by force, or controlling him.

Might I just remind you of the hadith akhi,

من رأى منكم منكرا... I think you know the rest. The weakest of faith is to not be able to change the sin, and the strongest of faith therefore should be to change it.

[Paul Rusco]

Originally Posted by not4me

Whatever trends, example illegal drug usage and drug trade...

Originally Posted by not4me

There are new things that appear in the different times and places. One of the new issues like organ transplantation and cloning. The Islamic scholars with integrated effort of the specialists in the relevant fields try to reach an Islamic legal verdict concerning such issues, and any phenomenoa and trends that appear to be harmful will be dealt with as it fits. It seems Badran thinks that everything should be mentioned directly in the Qur'an (and I won't say Sunnah since he picks and dismisses however he wants based on his lack of knowledge). No, the Qur'an draws the general rules, and doesn't go into the details except in a few cases. A topic like sodomy and homosexual acts, true that is no direct punishment mentioned in the Qur'an (or the Sunnah I believe) but if there is a penalty for adultery and homosexual acts are regarded worse than adultery since it opposes the natural order and inclination, then why not protecting the Islamic society by such penalty? Moreover, the prophet pbuh in a hadith regarded homosexual acts as equivalent to adultery, then legally they should be treated the same. Even if we accepted that there is actually no specified punishment in Islam, this doesn't mean that there can't by any disciplinary penalties when needed.

I see, and the Sunnah as the compiled history of what Mohammad did, right? Out of curiosty which Hadith is it which the Prophet says that Homosexuality is equal to Adultery? I'm gussing it's either Bukhari or Muslim?

[Kerr]

Originally Posted by Abu Rashid

Might I just remind you of the hadith akhi,

من رأى منكم منكرا... I think you know the rest. The weakest of faith is to not be able to change the sin, and the strongest of faith therefore should be to change it.

It is not about faith. There are many people who have no faith and decide to overcome their bad sides. Of course, they may or may not agree with what you consider to be something that should change, but that does not mean they are incapable of it.

To be fair, though, I may have misunderstood what you meant (the words can be interpreted in many ways, depending on what... glasses... I use), and if I did I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Abu Rashid]

Kerr, my statement refers to the hadith where Muhammad (pbuh) said: "Whosoever of you sees an evil action, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart; and that is the weakest of faith."

Seeing evil and not changing it (ie. merely hating it in your heart, without working physically or verbally to change it) is the weakest expression of faith.

As Badran recognises this act to be a sinful act, then if he possesses faith, he should work to change it, with deed or speech.

It was nothing to do with faithless people working to overcome their bad sides.