...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[no-body]

Originally Posted by Evandr

Did you not read post 12? It seems that all you have is questions that no one can adequately answer to your satisfaction.
Belief in someone does not give power or effect to actions, actions are what they are regardless of whether you believe it or not. Just what do you believe?

I read it, you just restated why he died for our sins and why we should believe it, but not the how of it.

You have the right to believe what you want, it's up to you. The trick is finding out what the truth is. My belief does not determine truth and your questions do not invalidate it. Belief is conceptual and concepts can be on target or they can be completely wrong. It's like being in a living maze wherein, the walls are constantly changing, there is but one way out, and a guide is absolutely necessary. You can listen to the guide and be successful or you can spend all your time ignoring the guide as you point out all the other twists and turns the maze may present. The trick is in knowing how to identify the guide.

It is my belief that Christ was and is the only one given the authority to establish a path around the demands of Justice with regard to sin. The first path no one can follow because all are guilty of sin and forward progression would quickly be halted. The path established by Christ CAN be successfully traversed provided that the traveler follows the directives given by Christ.

Jesus Christ cannot alter the path to fit the desires of the individual, nor can He provide another path, either you do or you don't walk the established path, Scripture tells us that there is no other way by which man can come unto God and I have been given to believe it for several reasons not the least of which is that it all fits together, no smoke and mirrors needed - it just makes sense.

Suffering was not the intent of the atonement but an effect of what had to be done to accomplish it. It's like exercising, I don't exorcise to get sore, I exorcise to get fit, getting sore is just a temporary effect of my exercise, an effect I am willing to deal with.

So how does believing in an idea save us? It can't in and of itself. To believe in something, I mean really believe, is to act on that belief. It is action that saves us. Most of Christianity will try to tell you that mere belief is enough. That is a convenient and lazy doctrine akin to believing that you can get from point "A" to point "B" by simply wanting to while you sit on your butt and do nothing, or, as it is with many people, spending so much time questioning the methods laid out on how to get there that they are in danger of running out of the time necessary to actually get there.

How does one find truth? It is my experience that the answers to life's most important questions have to come from the Master Teacher, Our creator, God.

How does one find God? Diligence, humility, prayer, study, listening, and then pondering what you learn. One sure way to find yourself still twisting and turning in the maze after it is too late is obstinance, taking the position that if God is not going to teach me in the way I want to be taught then I will lean on my own understanding and do things my own way. I would say "good luck with that" but luck never has been and never will be enough.

Like I keep saying, it all boils down to a feeling you get when you follow scripture if you cannot answer the question. Which is fine, it's called faith. But if you claim that the bible is objectiviably literal and explainable it should be able to answer the tougher theological questions. To say that there is only one path because it works for you and others is mighty convenient. You imply that those who don't get the same feeling you do when they try Christianity are doing it wrong.

[Baydwin]

Originally Posted by Evandr

One such limitation is that Mercy cannot rob justice.
...

Jesus Christ paid the price of Sin so that mankind may be redeemed.
...

This still leaves Jesus Christ and His Father Eloheim helpless to extend forgiveness to anyone who refuses to take advantage of this second path.

I'm sorry but I don't see how this makes any more sense than what Man of Faith said.
God created justice when He determined what is sinful and what is not. Clearly it is in His power to subvert justice, as He allowed one man (Jesus) to be punished (suffer) for the sin of other people.

That act in itself is unjust, even if it was willing on the part of Jesus, as it destroys the crime and punishment dynamic utterly.
No one would call it justice if a man murdered three women, but his father opted to take his place in prison.

Besides that, mercy is an inherent part of justice, they aren't separate and unrelated. It is unjust to offer redemption to only those who are lucky enough to have heard of Jesus (and the right denomination's Jesus at that), whereas it is merciful and just to offer it to all with righteous hearts. Belief should not enter the equation for a merciful or just God.

[Evandr]

Originally Posted by Baydwin

God created justice when He determined what is sinful and what is not. Clearly it is in His power to subvert justice, as He allowed one man (Jesus) to be punished (suffer) for the sin of other people.

Not so, God did not allow Christ to be punished, Christ volunteered to do what was necessary to alter the equation that would open the path for redemption of the sinner. It is sad that doing so caused so much pain but the pain was an effect of the atonement not the power.

That act in itself is unjust, even if it was willing on the part of Jesus, as it destroys the crime and punishment dynamic utterly.
No one would call it justice if a man murdered three women, but his father opted to take his place in prison.

Again, you do not understand. Crime and the consequence were not destroyed. Christ did not make it so it did not happen; He only provided the tools necessary for mankind to be able to satisfy the demands of justice thusly allowing God the right to disregard the action when considering judgment.

Your analogy is correct. A man needing to pay for the murder of three women himself is like a man needing to pay the price of sin himself. However, God being who he is, intervened and beseeched the judges of the guilty man with the offer to bring the three women back to life after exacting a price from the man that the man could handle therefore rectifying the whole situation as if it never occurred. If all partied agreed and the man was faithful to the directives of his benefactor then the three women would be returned alive and whole. If the man agreed and then failed to accomplish the directives of his benefactor than the justice of the judges would bear sway and the man would suffer as if there were no benefactor.

Besides that, mercy is an inherent part of justice, they aren't separate and unrelated. It is unjust to offer redemption to only those who are lucky enough to have heard of Jesus (and the right denomination's Jesus at that), whereas it is merciful and just to offer it to all with righteous hearts. Belief should not enter the equation for a merciful or just God.

Not quite, justice does not need to met out mercy to be satisfied. Luck has nothing to do with it. Our Heavenly Father's great plan of salvation did not start with this world nor does death halt the possibility for forward progression before the great and last day when all is said and done and we stand at the judgment bar of God. Mortality is a period of testing and experience wherein God has declared that from who much is given much is expected. It's complicated so I will suffice it to say that everyone will have the right to accept or reject Christ after having been taught.
In any case, a place of Glory (I believe that there are many and of varying degrees) is prepared for all of God’s children that kept their first estate (not following Lucifer out of the presence of God) and were given the opportunity to experience mortal probation. Christianity should cease to be fixated on the word punishment. The natural consequences of our actions can be desirable or undesirable. It is not punishment that causes pain if you stick your hand in a fire, it is a consequence of unwise choice. Calling the pain punishment when you did it of your own free will is not correct even though the result is the same as if someone forced your hand into the fire, they are two different considerations.
The same is true with the actions of God. He does not lead anyone into temptation nor does he intentionally inflict eternal punishment although there are many who receive it. It is a natural consequence of action, action initiated by the one who is suffering because of ignoring the commandments of God.

In any case I believe that two actions that God will not do is one: interfere with the free agency of man to choose life or death and the consequences thereof and two: He will not attempt to deny justice its due. To do either would be to collapse the whole of creation and all life in all realms would cease to be.

[IF_u_knew]

Originally Posted by no-body

I've always been intrigued by John 3:16 what are the larger theological implications and what does it mean exactly? All you have to believe is that Jesus Christ came down to earth to die for our sins yada yada yada and you get a get out of jail free card?

I've always taken an esoteric view and consider belief in Christ as a zen thing. It is difficult to wrap my brain around the literal approach to this statement. Why should God care if we believed He came down to earth to die for our sins?

I don't understand why it has to be seen as Jesus, who was but a man. Exodus 4:22 KJV Though Jesus was one OF the Son of God ... Israel, the People, is who I believe that he was referring to in John 3:16. After all, there is what is written in John 5:46-47. How could one believe Jesus words if they do not know the words that Jesus was teaching from? One doesn't ... rather most believe the words of other men who claim to know what it is Jesus meant. Ironic when Jesus was clear more than once where we could go to find the meaning/value of his words. Matthew 5:17-19

BTW ... I do not believe that "perish" is speaking physically (obviously I am correct ) and rather it is, as you allude to, better understood esoterically.

[Evandr]

Originally Posted by no-body

I read it, you just restated why he died for our sins and why we should believe it, but not the how of it.

Scripture has never entertained the illusion that mankind has the mental capacity to understand the how of it. We can be made to know the reality of it but that takes effort, effort that the majority of humanity finds too inconvenient to pursue.

Like I keep saying, it all boils down to a feeling you get when you follow scripture if you cannot answer the question. Which is fine, it's called faith. But if you claim that the bible is objectiviably literal and explainable it should be able to answer the tougher theological questions. To say that there is only one path because it works for you and others is mighty convenient. You imply that those who don't get the same feeling you do when they try Christianity are doing it wrong.

Every individual has the right to personal revelation wherein they can be taught the truth but, again, preparing to receive such revelation takes effort. Anyone can accomplish it but you must remember (I mean no offense) that God will not throw pearls before swine meaning that God will not give spiritual revelation to someone who will not properly respect it and act upon it. Search your own soul, it is there you will find, in the quiet solitude of your own consciousness, the reasons you may or may not be receiving wisdom via personal revelation. Make no mistake, there are those in this world, and not a few, that are receiving personal revelation for that over which they are called to preside even if it is only themselves over which they preside.

[Baydwin]

Originally Posted by Evandr

Your analogy is correct. A man needing to pay for the murder of three women himself is like a man needing to pay the price of sin himself. However, God being who he is, intervened and beseeched the judges of the guilty man with the offer to bring the three women back to life after exacting a price from the man that the man could handle therefore rectifying the whole situation as if it never occurred. If all partied agreed and the man was faithful to the directives of his benefactor then the three women would be returned alive and whole. If the man agreed and then failed to accomplish the directives of his benefactor than the justice of the judges would bear sway and the man would suffer as if there were no benefactor.

Problem is, that's not justice. Jesus said that someone is guilty of murder if they have so much as an angry thought about another person. God coming along and saying, "hey, it's ok I'll resurrect these girls" doesn't negate the fact that the man is still a murderer and should be duly punished for his crimes.

Having a third party atone for your sins is not justice, regardless of the factors involved or the deals made. Not doing the time for your own crime is never just.

I know I'm not going to change your mind on this, I'm aware that as a Mormon this is central to your belief system. As is the concept of a Paradise/Spirit Prison where people get the chance to progress up the layers of heaven, so mercy is clearly a big part of your faith as well.
But while I recognise and respect that your belief system is very intricate and thought out, I personally find it nonsensical. I don't mean to be offensive by that, just honest.

[Evandr]

Originally Posted by Baydwin

Problem is, that's not justice. Jesus said that someone is guilty of murder if they have so much as an angry thought about another person. God coming along and saying, "hey, it's ok I'll resurrect these girls" doesn't negate the fact that the man is still a murderer and should be duly punished for his crimes.

Having a third party atone for your sins is not justice, regardless of the factors involved or the deals made. Not doing the time for your own crime is never just.

I know I'm not going to change your mind on this, I'm aware that as a Mormon this is central to your belief system. As is the concept of a Paradise/Spirit Prison where people get the chance to progress up the layers of heaven, so mercy is clearly a big part of your faith as well.
But while I recognise and respect that your belief system is very intricate and thought out, I personally find it nonsensical. I don't mean to be offensive by that, just honest.

Fair enough and I respect your views.

By the way I never said that the murderer was going to walk away scott free, he was going to be asked to repent and the test of that repentance was going to be perfect in its surety and exactness, in other words the repentance will be real or the atonement would have no effect in the life of that individual.
Now, the analogy of murder is a bit harsh because spilling innocent blood...well...there is not degree of repentance that will get you back to the presence of God because you basically usurped the power of God and passed irreversible judgment on a living soul. That sin puts you on the bottom of the glory line (a simplistic way to put it but I'm sure you know what I mean). The only sin greater than that is to deny the Holy Ghost which get you cast out with Lucifer but only those who do that knowing exactly what they are doing and choosing to do so suffer that fate.

[no-body]

Originally Posted by Evandr

Scripture has never entertained the illusion that mankind has the mental capacity to understand the how of it. We can be made to know the reality of it but that takes effort, effort that the majority of humanity finds too inconvenient to pursue.

I understand that, my beef is with people that want to take a mystical text and make it literal. As if using bibles verses, terminology, and belief system justifies something objectively. All it proves is that you can copy how the people in the bible speak and think.

Every individual has the right to personal revelation wherein they can be taught the truth but, again, preparing to receive such revelation takes effort. Anyone can accomplish it but you must remember (I mean no offense) that God will not throw pearls before swine meaning that God will not give spiritual revelation to someone who will not properly respect it and act upon it. Search your own soul, it is there you will find, in the quiet solitude of your own consciousness, the reasons you may or may not be receiving wisdom via personal revelation. Make no mistake, there are those in this world, and not a few, that are receiving personal revelation for that over which they are called to preside even if it is only themselves over which they preside.

I have no problem with this. Using a strict outlined path is how you get your revelation, you might not believe that other people can get there with a more fluid one but you are free to believe that.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by no-body

I've always been intrigued by John 3:16 what are the larger theological implications and what does it mean exactly? All you have to believe is that Jesus Christ came down to earth to die for our sins yada yada yada and you get a get out of jail free card?

What is in dark font is the question. What is not in dark font is an explanation I hope is well beneath your intellect. In light of everything the bible has to say about life and death, why bother with the whole book to begin with and not just teach that verse?

[Evandr]

Originally Posted by no-body

I understand that, my beef is with people that want to take a mystical text and make it literal. As if using bibles verses, terminology, and belief system justifies something objectively. All it proves is that you can copy how the people in the bible speak and think.

For me the text is not mystical, it is based on real events and real people and real speech written for the benefit of man. I do believe, however, that the text has not gone these many hundreds of years without blemish. That is why I believe so strongly in current revelation to a living prophet. I believe that God did not forget about us, that He arranged for us to have His word in it's purity and I believe that He did not stop there, I firmly believe that He does indeed communicate with His people today just as He did anciently. I am an analytical person at heart and my beliefs fit every test of prophesy and scripture I have ever come to know. I cannot accept any degree of smoke, mirrors and confusion in my religious beliefs and I have none.

I have no problem with this. Using a strict outlined path is how you get your revelation, you might not believe that other people can get there with a more fluid one but you are free to believe that.

Then we have come to an agreement. I cannot believe for you and you cannot believe for me. Religion is a very personal endeavor between the individual and God. Remember this - (I am pointing no fingers here) no one will ever have an excuse before God for being wrong.