You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by MSizer

No, that's not how it works at all. You've presumably learned from scripture that Jesus was the son of god, right? (I'm only guessing, even if you're not christian, the analagy will work). Now, along comes a Muslim and says "Jesus was a prophet, but not the son of god". Have you just learned something new? Does it replace your "mistaken" notion of Jesus? No, any amount of information can come along, but you can't choose which you find credible and which you find incredible. A better example might be that two kids come crying and one of them has a black eye. The kid with the black eye says "he hit me". The accused kid says "no I didn't, sadam heussein dropped in by parachute and kicked him in the face". Which kid do you believe? Can you choose to believe the sadam story instead? No, you can't. That's the way it works. We're predisposed to believe certain things, and that's why we're so superstitious. That's why we believe in gods and other myths. There were socio-biological benefits to believing things that may not be rather than being too sceptical.

The 'snap judgment' would be to write the incredible claim off. I can understand that part of what your saying and if the snap judgment was all there was then I would agree with everything you've said thus far. However, you can still make the choice to investigate the claim, no matter how incredible, to see if there is any truth to be found in it. The choice, to investigate or not, is still yours to make and not one that is predetermined.

[MSizer]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

The 'snap judgment' would be to write the incredible claim off. I can understand that part of what your saying and if the snap judgment was all there was then I would agree with everything you've said thus far. However, you can still make the choice to investigate the claim, no matter how incredible, to see if there is any truth to be found in it. The choice, to investigate or not, is still yours to make and not one that is predetermined.

Aha, yes, I certainly can - and I have. I have investigated the claim to a deeper degree than even many theists have, and come up empty. That's my point. The choice to investigate, yes indeed, the choice to make my own answer as I please, no sir.

[MSizer]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Are you biologically predetermined to be an atheist? I know you participated in religion at one time: were you at that time biologically predetermined to be a theist? If things change 10 years from now, are you biologically predetermined to be that, or are you biologically predetermined to leap from one end of the spectrum to the other?

That doesn't mean I can't be wrong. If jesus knocks on my door tonight, my mind will be changed. But not becuase I either want it to change or don't want it to change, but becuse the evidence is what it is, and I can only observe and let my mind make itself up based on that.

[MSizer]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

Intriguing. I'm curious, if someone is 'biologically predetermined' to be an Atheist or a Theist then how do you explain conversions between the two? If my biological makeup predisposes me to Atheism then I don't see any way I could ever be anything else?

(Not knocking your post but asking out of honest curiosity.)

New information, brain lesions and epilepsy. My mind can be changed, if the evidence shows up to change it. The whole point is that I don't choose how I evaluate the evidence, and nobody does. You don't look at a red truck and say "well, this time, I know it looks red, but I'm going to believe I see yellow". What you're pointing out in a conversion example requires either a changing of the evidence, or a changing of deep temporal biology which alters the unconcious decision making process. We both sense things similarly (presumably) but our perceptions though are influenced by many things, and our mind becomes made up for us.

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by MSizer

New information, brain lesions and epilepsy. My mind can be changed, if the evidence shows up to change it. The whole point is that I don't choose how I evaluate the evidence, and nobody does. You don't look at a red truck and say "well, this time, I know it looks red, but I'm going to believe I see yellow". What you're pointing out in a conversion example requires either a changing of the evidence, or a changing of deep temporal biology which alters the unconcious decision making process. We both sense things similarly (presumably) but our perceptions though are influenced by many things, and our mind becomes made up for us.

Okay, I simply misunderstood what you meant. To me, saying "I'm biologically predetermined" makes it sound as though, regardless of evidence or even divine intervention, you can never be anything else.
Saying "God made me this way" is an absolute and I took "I'm biologically predetermined" to be one as well.

[MSizer]

Originally Posted by The_Evelyonian

Okay, I simply misunderstood what you meant. To me, saying "I'm biologically predetermined" makes it sound as though, regardless of evidence or even divine intervention, you can never be anything else.
Saying "God made me this way" is an absolute and I took "I'm biologically predetermined" to be one as well.

Yes, certainly understandable - in retrospect I should have worded it more specifically. It doesn't quite express what I really meant. Sorry.

[The_Evelyonian]

Originally Posted by MSizer

Yes, certainly understandable - in retrospect I should have worded it more specifically. It doesn't quite express what I really meant. Sorry.

No worries. It happens. Even with the misunderstanding, I've still enjoyed the debate thus far.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by MSizer

That doesn't mean I can't be wrong. If jesus knocks on my door tonight, my mind will be changed. But not becuase I either want it to change or don't want it to change, but becuse the evidence is what it is, and I can only observe and let my mind make itself up based on that.

Originally Posted by MSizer

New information... My mind can be changed, if the evidence shows up to change it. The whole point is that I don't choose how I evaluate the evidence, and nobody does.

What I meant in smiling at "biologically predetermined" is just that, above ^i^. That has nothing to do with "biologically predetermined." It's the difference between a description that screams "biology works to make me what I am," and "I am biology at work." I am the universal machine at work. It doesn't make me do things, rather me doing things is a part of what it is. When "my mind is changed" by evidence and not by choice, that is the universal machine ticking along. I am biology.

Else you make biology into god. Biology doesn't predetermine any more (or less) than god does.

(And, actually, that does mean you can't be wrong, but that's another story.)

[cardero]

The Evelyonian writes: You make your own decisions in life rather than being forced to choose one path or another. That is free-will.

The $64,000 Question:
If you believe that God gave us free-will, is there a penalty/price/punishment (from God) on our decisions?

$120,000 Question:
What is the penalty/price/punishment (from God) for choosing a decision that is not agreeable to God?

[zenzero]

Friend Greatest I Am,

You have free will but are only free to follow the rules.

God is a universal consciousness.

If we are in God’s image and He in ours

Putting statements 2 & 3 together it simply means that all forms are nothing but *consciousness*' if so then what *rules* are you speaking off?

Consciousness is simply * consciousness*; where is the question of *rules* or *freewill* etc. coming from? Consciousness cannot be part of anything except as an illusion to be perceived by someone who is not conscious of that consciousness!

Love & rgds