Salvation - permission, but no ability

[Adso]

Originally Posted by itwillend

For example Romans 3 vs 10-18, indicates exactly what I am saying in the OP.

The permission is there, but the ability is not.

Paul is quoting David in verses 10-18. But if you read verses 21-26, you will see that Paul states that there is not only the permission, but the ability as well.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by Adso

Paul is quoting David in verses 10-18. But if you read verses 21-26, you will see that Paul states that there is not only the permission, but the ability as well.

As stated, this ability is not in question, but when this ability develops.

For example we know John th Baptist came out of the womb full of the holy spirit or saved. Yet we also read babes come out of the womb corrupt and ready to do evil.

The idea that we can't do something good without being saved has nothing to do with salvation. In other words, anyone can do something good. That is not what salvation is, according to the scriptures. Salvation is simply when God enters a persons heart and makes that person one of his children. The result of which will be a desire to do the will of God.

Really two different things altogether.

[Terrywoodenpic]

Originally Posted by itwillend

Thank you for the reply.
If I may I will pick up on this section of your post. Take for example John The Baptist, who was saved in the whom. Take for example the thief on the cross, he was saved in a moment's time, while living a life of sin and self satisfaction.

Unless, the scriptures are more or less useless to you when it comes to forming an idea about salvation, your view is in stark contrast to many examples found in the scriptures.

Am I understanding you correctly?

I will agree my interpretations are often different to the majority view. However they are not unique amongst Christian thought. And in my case have been developed over very many years.

Jesus has the power to bring any one into the presence of God (Salvation) that is certain.

In the case of the crucified thief, neither Mark nor Mathew mention the incident, but Luke says “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” this means that to day you will (Future tense) receive Salvation. It does not mean you, as of this moment are saved.

John the Baptist is somewhat different, In that it is clear from the scripture that he was sent to prepare the way for Jesus. He was from the start in a “special” relationship with God. I suspect there was no doubt about his ultimate salvation.

The concept of the Holy Spirit as a person is a Christian one, and would not have been used at that time by Jews. (Its use in the New Testament seems to be a later rationalization of what happened)

I have no difficulty forming an Idea about Salvation in the Bible; I simply do not believe the interpretations given to it, by Constantine and as later developed by Calvin are correct.

[Terrywoodenpic]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

That's a tad bit hasty. Perhaps my motive won't be to save my bacon. Perhaps my motive will be something else, such as genuine love for my neighbour, inspired in my heart by the selfless (from God's side) and meritless (from my side) gift of salvation. Since we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith UNTO good works, it should follow that an authentic salvation should automatically produce a desire to perform good works. And the measure of authentic salvation is the degree to which a desire for good works is manifested in one's life.

I don't necessarily believe this picture, but it's at least possible, and it refutes your statement that if works have no influence on salvation that there is no incentive for ethics. It just changes the nature of the incentive.

Not exactly hasty, the result of many years thought, But a fairly inexact and bald statement perhaps, as befits this medium.

"Motive" was probably not the Right word but the nearest to come to hand.

Those that Love God and are Guided buy the Holy spirit will try to accomplish "good Works" and live in the way Jesus taught us. This include an ethos of Helping our fellow man and obeying the other commandments.

They do this not because they are saved but simply because they love God. There is no expectation of reward involved.
I simply do not believe in the concept of being saved and all else follows.
Those that love God but do nothing are making an empty gesture, that will not go unnoticed.

I neither believe in Original sin nor Salvation before death.
We are responsible for our own destiny.
Our ability to repent and to have our sins forgiven is an on going process that will be resolved in Salvation.

Our Salvation or otherwise, is not preordained. it is as a result of our own choices and actions and accomplished by God's Grace.

We have all the help we need in the Holy Spirit.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic

I will agree my interpretations are often different to the majority view. However they are not unique amongst Christian thought. And in my case have been developed over very many years.

Jesus has the power to bring any one into the presence of God (Salvation) that is certain.

In the case of the crucified thief, neither Mark nor Mathew mention the incident, but Luke says “today shalt thou be with me in paradise” this means that to day you will (Future tense) receive Salvation. It does not mean you, as of this moment are saved.

John the Baptist is somewhat different, In that it is clear from the scripture that he was sent to prepare the way for Jesus. He was from the start in a “special” relationship with God. I suspect there was no doubt about his ultimate salvation.

The concept of the Holy Spirit as a person is a Christian one, and would not have been used at that time by Jews. (Its use in the New Testament seems to be a later rationalization of what happened)

I have no difficulty forming an Idea about Salvation in the Bible; I simply do not believe the interpretations given to it, by Constantine and as later developed by Calvin are correct.

Hi Terry, it appears you have either created your own version or at least accepted someone's idea of what salvation is. Maybe it will help if you define salvation as according to you. I am starting to get the impression your definition is not wholly derived from the bible.

While I appreciate that you have spent many years thinking on said topics, I would venture to say so have most of us. Which is apparent with this thread.

So please explain salvation to me according to your views so I am not misunderstanding you as we continue our talk.

Thanks...

[Terrywoodenpic]

Originally Posted by itwillend

Hi Terry, it appears you have either created your own version or at least accepted someone's idea of what salvation is. Maybe it will help if you define salvation as according to you. I am starting to get the impression your definition is not wholly derived from the bible.

While I appreciate that you have spent many years thinking on said topics, I would venture to say so have most of us. Which is apparent with this thread.

So please explain salvation to me according to your views so I am not misunderstanding you as we continue our talk.

Thanks...

Salvation as a separate concept is very problematical.

As I hold very much to the statement of faith of the Non Subscribing Presbyterians in not accepting any Dogma,
I start with very much a blank sheet.
Like them, I take the Bible as the base, including a study of the views of the various Christian Traditions, both past and present, both heretical and otherwise.
This is the source of my faith.

I quite understand that such an open and liberal Christianity is an anathema to many Christians who follow a fixed set of teachings. However it is the NSP way.

To give a clearer perspective of my beliefs I do not accept all the teachings of the Old Testament as either necessary or valid, though amongst them are some very appropriate teachings to Christian understanding.

I particularly do not accept the story of creation or that of Adam and Eve and original sin. This rules out the Constantine teachings and that of Calvin, and virtually all other teachings based on them.

As a starting point, this puts me into a pre Constantine mind set, more akin to the Orthodox position, or indeed of the various Churches, later to be declared as heretical

With all that taken into consideration, it is not surprising that my view on Salvation is also rather primitive.

The interpretation of the words “Jesus Died for our Salvation” have come to depend for their meaning on the sin of Adam and Eve and our inherited sin and total corruption. Not surprisingly I reject this interpretation.
So what do I put in its place?... Nothing at all…

Jesus died not directly for our sins, But as an example.
His death and resurrection demonstrate that with complete faith in God and by sacrificing and dedicating a sinless life to God, we can be lead to Salvation.
His sacrifice gave us the possibility of Salvation not a guarantee of Salvation.

As there is no chance at all that we can live up to that extreme standard, it is only with the grace of God that Salvation is possible.

Salvation, is being in the perpetual presence of God.

I have not included any thing about preordination as that seems to be a logical folly.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by Terrywoodenpic

Salvation as a separate concept is very problematical.

As I hold very much to the statement of faith of the Non Subscribing Presbyterians in not accepting any Dogma,
I start with very much a blank sheet.
Like them, I take the Bible as the base, including a study of the views of the various Christian Traditions, both past and present, both heretical and otherwise.
This is the source of my faith.

I quite understand that such an open and liberal Christianity is an anathema to many Christians who follow a fixed set of teachings. However it is the NSP way.

To give a clearer perspective of my beliefs I do not accept all the teachings of the Old Testament as either necessary or valid, though amongst them are some very appropriate teachings to Christian understanding.

I particularly do not accept the story of creation or that of Adam and Eve and original sin. This rules out the Constantine teachings and that of Calvin, and virtually all other teachings based on them.

As a starting point, this puts me into a pre Constantine mind set, more akin to the Orthodox position, or indeed of the various Churches, later to be declared as heretical

With all that taken into consideration, it is not surprising that my view on Salvation is also rather primitive.

The interpretation of the words “Jesus Died for our Salvation” have come to depend for their meaning on the sin of Adam and Eve and our inherited sin and total corruption. Not surprisingly I reject this interpretation.
So what do I put in its place?... Nothing at all…

Jesus died not directly for our sins, But as an example.
His death and resurrection demonstrate that with complete faith in God and by sacrificing and dedicating a sinless life to God, we can be lead to Salvation.
His sacrifice gave us the possibility of Salvation not a guarantee of Salvation.

As there is no chance at all that we can live up to that extreme standard, it is only with the grace of God that Salvation is possible.

Salvation, is being in the perpetual presence of God.

I have not included any thing about preordination as that seems to be a logical folly.

OK, well you did your part, you explained what I asked you too, for that I thank you.

As much as I would like to discuss/debate the finer points to your Christianity, I suspect you are pretty set in your ways. Especially if you wholly dismiss parts out of the bible.

If I don't talk to you again before, have a great holiday season. Of course if there is anything further you would like to hear from me, please ask.