Can logical thinking lead towards faith? (Creator, creation, atheist, eternal)

[Melody]

Originally Posted by TranceAm

Eh easy, so easy you forget it...
You now invent some praktical application that will do exactly what you thought it would do when you invented the idea..
Like if you were living long ago you could have invented the wheel.. THEN you create it from matter.. But the idea had NO matter.

Nice try ....let's talk tangible matter. Has there ever been an incident where something was created from absolutely nothing?

[Melody]

Originally Posted by TranceAm

So it is a hanging chad.. It could still fall either way.

Death to the hanging chad....may I never hear the word "chad" again in this lifetime. Although that's probably too much to hope for.

[Dr. Khan]

I believe that a creator as you are trying to describe in this post can and will do anything he want's to and is not subject to any logic or reasoning. Thus the creator cannot be found within the reasonings of man. He is tooo wonderful!!!!!

[Cordoba]

Hello TranceAm:

Originally Posted by TranceAm

Can par example "your" logic which leads "you" to "your" faith, invade my and others private life, body or in general affect our happiness?

The clear answer to this question is NO.

Each person is free to believe what they find to be the most convincing.

[Cordoba]

Hello Roli:

Originally Posted by roli

We don't know anything for certain, they have only with their limited knowledge assumed it to be 14 billion ,how many times has that changed. How do they know for certain

I don't think that the exact age of the universe is the main point here, but the fact that scientists have proven that it is not eternal.

Whether it's 13.8 billion years old, or 14 billion years doesn't make much difference.

[Cordoba]

The Qur'an is very clear on the freedom of belief:

"For you is your religion, and for me is my religion." (109:6)

You can't force anybody to believe in God. In the first place if God wanted us all to believe in Him, He would have created us like He created angels, who can only obey Him.

What is different about the human race is that we have been granted the blessing of free will from God.

He wants us to believe in Him by our own free choice.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by TranceAm

I thought a wheel was..
Oh.. lets see something created from absolutely nothing... "Fear for death." would come close to that definition.. Not?

No...fear and death do not qualify. Let's take the wheel though. Tell me how you can create that wheel if you have nothing to make it with. No stone, rubber, metal, etc. Just put out your hands and create a wheel with nothing more than your thoughts and wishful thinking.

[michel]

Originally Posted by TranceAm

As usual, I hate to spoil the fun here. But since my initial post as in a reply stated above hinted to something it didn't hint to, I think I have to do a little better job.
If you are comfy in your faith, don't read this post. It could put doubt where until now was a firm conviction and a strong stance.

Logic: Based on boolean Algebra.

"AND" = && => If both of the components are true, the complete statement returns as true.
"OR" = || => If one of the components is true, the complete statement returns as true.

TRUE = 1
FALSE = 0

0 && 0 = 0 0 || 0 = 0
1 && 0 = 0 1 || 0 = 1
0 && 1 = 0 0 || 1 = 1
1 && 1 = 1 1 || 1 = 1

The statement "An apple that falls from a tree falls because of the effects of gravity towards Earth." can be split in several parts.

Part 1 would be "An apple that falls from a tree"
Part 2 would be "falls because of the effects of gravity towards Earth"

Only if both parts are true, exactly that happens what the statement tries to describe.
The tree that holds the apple up on a certain height, keeps gravity from accelerating the apple towards earth. And the moment the tree connection to the apple breaks, gravity accelerates the apple towards Earth until it hits the Earth.

So Part1 has to be true and Part2 has to be true before the whole statement becomes true.

Lets apply this logic to the thread (As I did before.) in an shortened example

The statement:
(
"God is true because noone can prove the counterexample"
&&
"I believe in god"
&&
"Millions of people believe in god, they can't all be wrong"
&&
God
)

Equals to: (1 && 1 && 1 && 1) = (1) = TRUE ( Don't cheer yet.)

Now, if we put only what we can "prove" in a logic statement, we can at the maximum come as far as: 1 && God = ? Since we don't know whether God = TRUE or FALSE
and depending whether God is TRUE or FALSE the statement becomes TRUE or FALSE.

X = God or any other "thing/idea" people can believe in (But not prove!!!) and SET to TRUE to have at least something to work with.
I guess you could call this Faith upfront that it will become TRUE.
But then again, in every horse race, there is a horse that wins, in this case either TRUE or FALSE wins.

As analog, You can build a house of cards, but it won't be the same as a brick building since it has all the inherited characteristics of a house of cards.. Pull one on the bottom and the whole building goes.

So Sorry people unless we introduce in the boolean logic a "maybe" type expression that we just initiate by definition as TRUE... This is deceiving ourselves.

You can find ANY faith you want, In ANYTHING that way.
Only by putting the right statements in the boolean expression you want to evaluate, and leaving the "uncomfy" things out of that expression.
(Do you think it is a wonder why religious discussions always are a loosing game for the believers when confronted with logic?)

Maybe is not by definition "TRUE". Not even if you bet your life on it.

Even if in total over all recorded history a trillion people believe(d) it to be true. It still can be untrue.

Reality is what is, not what people want to interprete about what they perceive to be the truth.

Last short example to keep the mind sharp: "Faith will overcome the logic of this post."
You do the splitting in parts and setting their boolean values to make you able to go to sleep tonight. (Don't allow me to spoil your sleep by setting "faith" equal to X. )

I can assure you that I shall not loose any sleep over what you have said.

Part 1 would be "An apple that falls from a tree"
Part 2 would be "falls because of the effects of gravity towards Earth"

Is not logical; if it was so, all apples would fall off all trees all the time; you have not taken into account the ripeness of the apple, the strength of the stalk, wind, human iintervention.
I am not too proud to admit to being totally confused by your boolean Algebra. However, the definition of Boolean Algebra is:-Main Entry: Boolean algebra
Function: noun
: a set that is closed under two commutative binary operations and that can be described by any of various systems of postulates all of which can be deduced from the postulates that an identity element exists for each operation, that each operation is distributive over the other, and that for every element in the set there is another element which when combined with the first under one of the operations yields the identity element of the other operation.

Life does not work on a binary system; there are not just 'off' and 'on' switches; there are the 'sort of more off than on and sort of more on than off' - growth and decay have stages. Our own consciousness does not work on ons and offs - you must admit that.