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  #1  
Old 10-10-2009, 01:47 PM
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Default where did the fall come from?

where did the fall of man come from? were adam and eve created perfect? assuming they were, how could their actions be imperfect?? how can imperfection come from perfection??

and what was the result? they were perfect, then they ate from the tree of knowledge which added knowledge to perfection, and then god kept them from eating from the tree of life which added mortality to the mix.......

so the end result is, perfect yet mortal human beings with knowledge of good and evil..... i dont see the fall....

christians say though god initially created us perfect, we are now imperfect and born in sin. again, how? where did that kick in?

does mortality take away spiritual perfection? i dont see the connection

does knowledge take away spiritual perfection? again, i dont see how. knowledge is a characteristic of god. to say that it is something bad is to describe god as bad. god is also not imperfect or in sin despite knowledge.
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2009, 01:50 PM
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I have always wondered these same questions! This is why I feel like a lot of churches are "check your brain at the door" churches. A lot of times I have felt that for me to believe in this would cost me my intelligence.
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  #3  
Old 10-10-2009, 02:18 PM
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If God created everything then he created sin and all that is evil. Logic would dictate God's hands are stained with sin and that he is at least partly evil. To refute that would contradict logic and common sense.
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  #4  
Old 10-10-2009, 04:25 PM
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what if god intended us to remain neutral, with knowlegde you can't remain neutral, so he created mortality to get rid of the knowlegde
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  #5  
Old 10-10-2009, 08:58 PM
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It's unclear to me what perfection has to do with anything. I'm not even sure what that term would mean. Adam and Eve were created innocent. Thus they had, at least in the first instance, no desire to rebel against God or any such thing. So why did they sin? Well, the relevant narrative has a tempter in it. Where did he (the serpent) come from? The text does not say. But the tempter deceived Adam and Eve with half-truths and got them to distrust God.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunemeister View Post
It's unclear to me what perfection has to do with anything. I'm not even sure what that term would mean. Adam and Eve were created innocent. Thus they had, at least in the first instance, no desire to rebel against God or any such thing. So why did they sin? Well, the relevant narrative has a tempter in it. Where did he (the serpent) come from? The text does not say. But the tempter deceived Adam and Eve with half-truths and got them to distrust God.
Please describe what you mean by sin.
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  #7  
Old 10-10-2009, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JustWondering View Post
Please describe what you mean by sin.
In the context of the account of the fall in Genesis 3 - 5, sin is distrusting God.
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  #8  
Old 10-10-2009, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunemeister View Post
In the context of the account of the fall in Genesis 3 - 5, sin is distrusting God.
I do not know your God. How can I distrust him?
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  #9  
Old 10-10-2009, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomasortega View Post
where did the fall of man come from? were adam and eve created perfect? assuming they were, how could their actions be imperfect?? how can imperfection come from perfection??

and what was the result? they were perfect, then they ate from the tree of knowledge which added knowledge to perfection, and then god kept them from eating from the tree of life which added mortality to the mix.......

so the end result is, perfect yet mortal human beings with knowledge of good and evil..... i dont see the fall....

christians say though god initially created us perfect, we are now imperfect and born in sin. again, how? where did that kick in?

does mortality take away spiritual perfection? i dont see the connection

does knowledge take away spiritual perfection? again, i dont see how. knowledge is a characteristic of god. to say that it is something bad is to describe god as bad. god is also not imperfect or in sin despite knowledge.
As a Christian, I have never considered Adam and Eve perfect. I don't finbd "perfect" or "perfection" used anywhere in the Genesis story. It does however say that God pronounced all of creation as being "good," and I find no reason to equate gooeness with perfection. I don't think we really understand the mind of God and therefore have, perhaps, entertained misp[erceptions about "the fall." If any of the Bible story is true, then that which we choose to call the fall must have served some good purpose that we still have not groked.
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  #10  
Old 10-10-2009, 11:58 PM
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Default Knowledge and will

Without disputing outright what has preceded I bring the additional question to the discussion, in context adam and eve were said to be good (gen 3-5), lets set aside the issue of the "tempter or serpent" and the whole issue of who tempted whom....the apple was from "the tree of knowledge of good and evil" (theist please correct me if I am misquoting, or too far out of context I don't have a bible at hand), my question would be this.

If they were good, and had no knowledge of good or evil prior to eating the apple, then weren't they incapable of sin? Is not the single prerequesite for evil the will to do harm? Or put more in this context, the KNOWLEDGE of evil? If they possessed no knowledge of right from wrong, good from evil, were they not incapable of the capacity to form intent? As would be a child?

Just a question...seemed to fit with the theme...
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