Religion in school (choice, America, church, atheist, religions)

[painted wolf]

now your trying to hard to read into it... I don't think the founders were being so obtuse when they wrote it.... if that was what they wanted they would have stated it plainly and not left it for us to argue the definition of AN...

also what happined is that they realized that there were more than just christians in america... very early on there were jews and Diests and Humanist and hosts of other 'non christian' religions.
Eventually the very idea of church run education began to loose its luster... so much so that the major universities began to secularize and get rid of thier religious restrictions...

While I don't disagree with mentioning that people in history had particular religous beliefs, I don't think that should be an excuse for teaching thier respective religions. Remember that Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were both Diests... shall we teach Diesm? What about John Adams?
What is important about the faiths of our 'founding fathers' is that they were intelligent enough to set aside thier faith differences in order to make 'a more perfect union'....

I believe that we have the best of the limited involvement... ie, churches don't have any say in the running of government.. but thier followers can say whatever they want and freely run for office.

if religion is such a non power today then why do politicians spend so much time courting them?
Look at the 'religious right' and the 'christian coalition'....

wa:-do

[painted wolf]

now your trying to hard to read into it... I don't think the founders were being so obtuse when they wrote it.... if that was what they wanted they would have stated it plainly and not left it for us to argue the definition of AN...

also what happined is that they realized that there were more than just christians in america... very early on there were jews and Diests and Humanist and hosts of other 'non christian' religions.
Eventually the very idea of church run education began to loose its luster... so much so that the major universities began to secularize and get rid of thier religious restrictions...

While I don't disagree with mentioning that people in history had particular religous beliefs, I don't think that should be an excuse for teaching thier respective religions. Remember that Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were both Diests... shall we teach Diesm? What about John Adams?
What is important about the faiths of our 'founding fathers' is that they were intelligent enough to set aside thier faith differences in order to make 'a more perfect union'....

I believe that we have the best of the limited involvement... ie, churches don't have any say in the running of government.. but thier followers can say whatever they want and freely run for office.

if religion is such a non power today then why do politicians spend so much time courting them?
Look at the 'religious right' and the 'christian coalition'....

wa:-do

[F_R_O_G]

I’m not readying anything into it, don't you think that if they didn't want any religion at all to be recognized they would have said "congress shale make no law respecting any establishment of religion" I think they chose there words very carefully and meant EXSACTULY what they said. besides the fact is it says congress and not state...

Ben Franklin "if a sparrow can not fall without Gods notice, can a nation rise without his aid" many of the founding fathers thought there was a God... I not saying we should teach a specific set of beliefs but there are many people who try to fallow one book but have different beliefs from the same book. infact I will go so far as to say that when they talked about a religion they were talking about different Christian religions, but I don't think I have a strong augment for that, though I have looked at everything and found it to be true.

[F_R_O_G]

I’m not readying anything into it, don't you think that if they didn't want any religion at all to be recognized they would have said "congress shale make no law respecting any establishment of religion" I think they chose there words very carefully and meant EXSACTULY what they said. besides the fact is it says congress and not state...

Ben Franklin "if a sparrow can not fall without Gods notice, can a nation rise without his aid" many of the founding fathers thought there was a God... I not saying we should teach a specific set of beliefs but there are many people who try to fallow one book but have different beliefs from the same book. infact I will go so far as to say that when they talked about a religion they were talking about different Christian religions, but I don't think I have a strong augment for that, though I have looked at everything and found it to be true.

[Mr Spinkles]

>>"congress shale make no law respecting any establishment of religion" I think they chose there words very carefully and meant EXSACTULY what they said. <<

EXACTLY what they said? And what "exactly" did they mean by "no law respecting any establishment of religion"? There is a lot of room for interpretation here, which is what the Framers intended (see also the vague language with which they write the rest of the Bill of Rights- what exactly defines a search and seizure as "unreasonable" anyway?)

>>besides the fact is it says congress and not state... <<

This is the first ammendment of the Bill of Rights, which has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to apply to states and the federal government alike.

And isn't it good that this applies to state as well as federal government? Aren't you glad, after all, that NO level of government can restrict your freedom of religion/speech/press, conduct unreasonable searches and seizures, deny you a fair and speedy trial or a state-appointed lawyer, or try you twice for the same crime?

[Mr Spinkles]

>>"congress shale make no law respecting any establishment of religion" I think they chose there words very carefully and meant EXSACTULY what they said. <<

EXACTLY what they said? And what "exactly" did they mean by "no law respecting any establishment of religion"? There is a lot of room for interpretation here, which is what the Framers intended (see also the vague language with which they write the rest of the Bill of Rights- what exactly defines a search and seizure as "unreasonable" anyway?)

>>besides the fact is it says congress and not state... <<

This is the first ammendment of the Bill of Rights, which has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to apply to states and the federal government alike.

And isn't it good that this applies to state as well as federal government? Aren't you glad, after all, that NO level of government can restrict your freedom of religion/speech/press, conduct unreasonable searches and seizures, deny you a fair and speedy trial or a state-appointed lawyer, or try you twice for the same crime?

[painted wolf]

Originally Posted by FROG

infact I will go so far as to say that when they talked about a religion they were talking about different Christian religions,

as well as Diesm, Humanism, and Atheism....

so then if they were talking about christians.. then the rest of us non-christians are out of luck is that it?

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce 15 when, after doubting by turns of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation it self. Some books against deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at [Robert] Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." -Benjamin Franklin

anyway... if you want your children to have religion in school then by all means send them to a religious school... I will send mine to a secular one and let them learn religion elcewhere...

wa:-do

ps... mr spinkles... I for one am greatful everyday for the freedoms that they so thoughtfully put in writing... Thank you for pointing that out :mrgreen:

[painted wolf]

Originally Posted by FROG

infact I will go so far as to say that when they talked about a religion they were talking about different Christian religions,

as well as Diesm, Humanism, and Atheism....

so then if they were talking about christians.. then the rest of us non-christians are out of luck is that it?

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce 15 when, after doubting by turns of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation it self. Some books against deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at [Robert] Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." -Benjamin Franklin

anyway... if you want your children to have religion in school then by all means send them to a religious school... I will send mine to a secular one and let them learn religion elcewhere...

wa:-do

ps... mr spinkles... I for one am greatful everyday for the freedoms that they so thoughtfully put in writing... Thank you for pointing that out :mrgreen:

[F_R_O_G]

Mr_Spinkles, I’m saying that the courts were wrong... what are you trying to say?

wolf, I can't prove that the founding fathers were Christian, but you also can't prove that they weren't. And so as before trying to debate the beliefs of the founding fathers is like trying to figure out the exact temperature with only your hand. (Actually it's harder because you have to figure out what it was 250 years ago)

[F_R_O_G]

Mr_Spinkles, I’m saying that the courts were wrong... what are you trying to say?

wolf, I can't prove that the founding fathers were Christian, but you also can't prove that they weren't. And so as before trying to debate the beliefs of the founding fathers is like trying to figure out the exact temperature with only your hand. (Actually it's harder because you have to figure out what it was 250 years ago)