Religion in school (choice, America, church, atheist, religions)

[F_R_O_G]

Ok, I’ve just got one more question, then I’ll probably give up because were getting nowhere but i might do some fallow up. What single religion would be promoted if they were to teach the bible in schools? Well it would promote many different religions you would need a lot of fingers to count them all... for example.. Protestants, orthodox, Lutheran (over a hundred other denominations) Jews (and all there denominations) Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, some Muslims and probably lots of other religions that I can't think of at this moment... well um, thats more than one...

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by F_R_O_G

Ceridwen018 could you show me where in the Constitution it says "separation of church and state", i'm having truble finding it.

Sorry to butt in here but I have some citations in which the phrase "a wall of separation between Church and State" appears.

It is found in Reynolds v US and reaffirmed in Everson v Board of Education and Mitchell v Helms.

[Ceridwen018]

F_R_O_G,

Ok, I’ve just got one more question, then I’ll probably give up because were getting nowhere but i might do some fallow up. What single religion would be promoted if they were to teach the bible in schools? Well it would promote many different religions you would need a lot of fingers to count them all... for example.. Protestants, orthodox, Lutheran (over a hundred other denominations) Jews (and all there denominations) Jehovah witnesses, Mormons, some Muslims and probably lots of other religions that I can't think of at this moment... well um, thats more than one...

You are right, in a sense. Parts of the Old Testament are recognized by many religions, on account of because Jews, Muslims, and Christians all trace their lineage back to Abraham. However, that's about where the similarities end. The Jews have their Torah, the Muslims their Q'ran. The Mormons most certainly have their own holy book, and the bible of the Catholics vs. that of the Christians varies greatly.

All of these religions include parts of the bible in their doctrine, but not all of them accept all of it-- especially the New Testament. The situation remains no less complicated.

A philosophy class which teaches a highly generalized version of the bible for part of a semester would be a fabulous idea.

[F_R_O_G]

i'm not saying we should have a class that teaches about God. i'm saying we should allow the schools to decide what to teach and not be forced to teach a New Age education.

if two or more separate groups of people agree on a idea then that idea can be taught according to the Constitution. but i don't think the founding fathers even thought that anything else but Christianity would be taught so when they said no establishment they meant no single Christan denomination.

we all know that wall of separation was used in the courts but i still can't seem to find it in the Constitution because ceridwen said "when they called for separation of church and state in the Constitution"

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by F_R_O_G

...

if two or more separate groups of people agree on a idea then that idea can be taught according to the Constitution. but i don't think the founding fathers even thought that anything else but Christianity would be taught so when they said no establishment they meant no single Christan denomination

It doesn't matter if all but one group agree to teach an idea. The constitutionality of an idea is not decided by a majority of people outside of the majority of Justices that vote on the constitutionality of the idea in the Supreme Court.

we all know that wall of separation was used in the courts but i still can't seem to find it in the Constitution because ceridwen said "when they called for separation of church and state in the Constitution"

Constitutional law is the sum of all the court cases and Amendments to the Constitution, and the body of the Constitution itself. The Supreme court is charged with determining what is and is not constitutional since Mabury v Madison. Each case the Supreme Court decides is by a review of all preceeding constitutional analysis made on the original document and the amendments thereto. This analysis is contained in the opinion of the court affixed to each decision.

The phrase "wall of separation" does not appear in the amendended document. But then, neither does pornography nor the right to marry Society depends on constitutional law and not just the literal document which is highly ambigious in places.

I did include above some of the case that place the "wall of separation between churh and state" clearly within the Constitution.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by F_R_O_G

if two or more separate groups of people agree on a idea then that idea can be taught according to the Constitution.

Which part of the Constitution says this?

but i don't think the founding fathers even thought that anything else but Christianity would be taught so when they said no establishment they meant no single Christan denomination.

Many of the founding fathers were deists, not Christians. Besides, the country has changed since back then....there are lots of other religions besides Christianity.

we all know that wall of separation was used in the courts but i still can't seem to find it in the Constitution because ceridwen said "when they called for separation of church and state in the Constitution"

There must be a wall of seperation in order to reconcile the conflicting statements in the Constitution and its amendments. The 14th amendment gaurantees that the Bill of Rights applies to state as well as federal government. Therefore the 1st amendment "Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion" applies to the states as well. The courts have interpreted this clause to roughly mean (and the judicial branch does have the right to interpret the law) that government should make no law promoting or discouraging an establishment of religion.

So public schools, because they are part of the state/local government and everything they do is mandated by the legislature and its laws, cannot promote or discourage an establishment of religion--even an establishment that agrees with multiple religions.

[Ardhanariswar]

schools should at least teach about what other religions do, holidays, scripture, teachings, culture, etc. it doenst make sense not to.

this is the real world. people who travel and live in the US are going to meet many different people. get used to it.

sure, church and state are separate, but its not like you are forcing religion upon them.

kids have the right to know about the world. it is our duty to open thier mind to the world.


sure, its possible that sum teachers may abuse this and go crazy, preaching religion. oh well... go to a parochial school.


whine whine whine!

[Ardhanariswar]

schools should at least teach about what other religions do, holidays, scripture, teachings, culture, etc. it doenst make sense not to.

this is the real world. people who travel and live in the US are going to meet many different people. get used to it.

sure, church and state are separate, but its not like you are forcing religion upon them.

kids have the right to know about the world. it is our duty to open thier mind to the world.


sure, its possible that sum teachers may abuse this and go crazy, preaching religion. oh well... go to a parochial school.


whine whine whine!

[Mr Spinkles]

Gerani-- schools are allowed to teach *about* religions. I don't have a problem with that. Teachers can say what groups/individuals think what, and why, and how they behave in light of their thoughts. Teachers just shouldn't preach one religion as truth and try to indoctrinate kids....that's all I'm saying.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Gerani-- schools are allowed to teach *about* religions. I don't have a problem with that. Teachers can say what groups/individuals think what, and why, and how they behave in light of their thoughts. Teachers just shouldn't preach one religion as truth and try to indoctrinate kids....that's all I'm saying.

I'd like to add, that even students may not teach nor express religious faith when school is in session. However, they may have religious expression in school sponsered clubs that meet after school on school property and there is a teacher or administrator in attendance.