The wages of sin... (soul, sin, God, Christ, Roman)

[retrorich]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Hmnnnn??? Maybe our bodies ARE disposable?

Ashes to ashes...dust to dust...sound disposable to me.

[SoulTYPE]

Originally Posted by robtex

no it is silly for you to pull one sentence out of romans and micro-analyize it without looking at the context from which it came. Why on earth pull out a random sentence not mention the source and than look at it while pretending it doesn't actually have a contextual home? That is what is silly.

I have heard the quote many a times out of context Robtex. Before you point the finger at me, it wasn't me that pulled it out of the Bible. If you recall, I asked where it came from, and so did you.

You may retalliate, but I won't bother doing so myself. I choose not to argue.

[No*s]

Quite obviously, I disagree with your usage of the Scripture. Another reason why I don't believe in Sola Scriptura .

Originally Posted by NetDoc

James 4:14. Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes.

This verse is rather inapplicable. It doesn't say that our material being is something we will simply slough when the time comes.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

II Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

Now...in the context, this verse works great with Romans 6.23 to demonstrate the redemption of the body as well.

Paul goes on to explain in the following verses how they are "persecuted but not destroyed," and so on. Getting to 4.10, though, we read "always carrying about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life of Jesus may be made manifested in our body." Up until this point, all references to "body" have been indisputably material, including the "earthen vessels." Now, however, salvation is applied to that same body.

Going further, Paul says "For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus' sake," a reference to physical death, "that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh." Again, we have a reference to the material. Somehow the salvation of Jesus is "manifested" in "mortal flesh."

Paul goes on to talk about how death is "working in us," but "life in you," and that they know that "He who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present you with us." Jesus died in a body, and He was raised physically. It is this hope of not just spiritual, but physical redemption that is tied up in the bodily resurrection of Christ .

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

And what "flesh and blood" is this? It is the corrupt bodies we have, and even the material will be restored, for "the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." In other words, we must be restored, and this includes the physical.

In fact, this is emphasized in the preceding verses. He writes in 15.42, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power." The "body" is "it" in this verse. Paul plainly teaches that the body will be raised and restored in this passage.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Hmnnnn??? Maybe our bodies ARE disposable?

While I clearly don't agree, I do like your choice of passages .

[SoulTYPE]

OUr bodies are all with flaw. God created us, but did not make us perfect.

[No*s]

We agree completely Soul .

Our bodies are subject to corruption, and that is why we die. I also believe that Adam and Eve weren't perfect ("complete" in the Greek), nor were they flawless ("perfect" in English). The former, because they hadn't matured. The latter, because they clearly fell and hadn't matured.

[SoulTYPE]

Nothing God created is perfect.

[Scuba Pete]

Quite obviously, I disagree with your usage of the Scripture.

Well, you've been wrong before, so I am quite used to this!

I humbly suggest that "persecuted but not destroyed," shows this perfectly. For they were obviously KILLED physically, though their spirits escaped unscathed.

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

It doesn't say anything about worshipping him "physically" does it? Now the body is merely "a jar of clay" and the treasure it holds is our soul! Soon, the jar will break and our soul will spill out. So? It will be raised in a completely new vessel. One that is incorruptible.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

I love the way Jesus responds here! Most errors in scripture ARE caused by his assertion of the Pharisees. However, I don't think that an understanding of spiritual/physical or corruptible/uncorruptible is essential to be saved.

[SoulTYPE]

Although I agree with you ND, but apparently it is forbidden to take one phrase out of the bible and use it.

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to NetDoc again.

I got that with the last 4 ppl I tried to frubal lol..there must be some connection. maybe the same people make all the good replies.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Well, you've been wrong before, so I am quite used to this!

You know, ND, I will always defend your right to be wrong, even in spite of my "infinite" wisdom .

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I humbly suggest that "persecuted but not destroyed," shows this perfectly. For they were obviously KILLED physically, though their spirits escaped unscathed.

I may simply interpret that as a Scriptural proof that the body isn't the sum total of what we are. It doesn't neccessitate that I make the body an unimportant part of us that will simply pass away. However, I don't see how you can reconcile your interpretation with the fact that Paul taught that Christ would be revealed in "our bodies," and elsewhere that the bodies will rise and we will be given new ones.

It seems, from these (and others), that physical death was very much on Paul's mind, and so was a physical resurrection.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

It doesn't say anything about worshipping him "physically" does it? Now the body is merely "a jar of clay" and the treasure it holds is our soul! Soon, the jar will break and our soul will spill out. So? It will be raised in a completely new vessel. One that is incorruptible.

Nor does it deny our being physical beings . Remember, this is the same book where Jesus commands people to "eat" His flesh and blood. A reference to "spirit" doesn't neccessitate that "spirit" and "matter" are opposed or anything less than complimentary.

On the second, I do agree. The jar will break, and we will be given a "new" one, but this "new" one will be the old restored. Remember, Jesus didn't just get a "new" body. His old one was refurbished and transformed. His resurrection is the model for salvation.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

I love the way Jesus responds here! Most errors in scripture ARE caused by his assertion of the Pharisees. However, I don't think that an understanding of spiritual/physical or corruptible/uncorruptible is essential to be saved.

"Understanding" it may or may not be. This very issue got the Gnostics into trouble. Christ's work was to redeem not just the spiritual, but the material. While I won't condemn someone to Hell for this (not my place), it is certainly an important part of Christianity. If He didn't need to redeem the physical, then the Fathers' (and Scripture's) understanding of the Incarnation was very, very wrong.

[SoulTYPE]

Sorry to be rude but I asked this question and I have no idea what ND and No*S conversation has to do wth it