What evidence is there that christians are all mass deluded?

[ben d]

Originally Posted by Heneni

Christians lol are taught by their god. Yes there are pastors and folk that talk about him, but he really is the one that reveals himself. So you can I suppose lay the blame of believing in god solely on those who talk about him, and yet, he never becomes really real to anybody that has only heard about him, atheists have heard about him, he becomes real to those he teaches himself. So now we have christians believing in this invisible non-existant god, and to top it all off, they are taught by him, and to make matters worse, he does not exist.

So...what is it about the human mind of a christian, that not only believes in this god, but actually is taught by him. He is not only a figment of our imagination, but he is also the one that changes our behaviour. So then if this non-existant god only exists in our minds, fair enough, but for this non-existant god to change our behaviour....what is that? How does a figment of one's imagination change your behaviour? That sounds like we are crazy...and then well....there must be some scientifice method to prove that.

Hi Henini, it seems to me that Madhuri makes a very good point.

One doesn't dispute that you gain understanding through the Grace of God, and agree with you that this in not brainwashing, but this is also true for sincere and devoted worshipers of other religions.

If you understand that there really is only one universal Reality behind the concept of the english word "God", and that Reality is the very same one and only God behind the concept of the Arabic word for God,.. 'Allah', or Hindu word for God,. 'Brahman', etc., then the evidence of brainwashing would only exist in those Christians who thought or believed that only Christians received divine insights.

It is my guess that by using that criteria, the majority of Christians would show evidence of being brainwashed to this extent, ie. that of believing that the God of Christians is not the God of Islam, etc., for such belief is so tribal and prejudiced as is common among mankind, it could not possibly come through the Grace of God. Mind you, the same error is common among the ignorant of other religions too.

[Madhuri]

Originally Posted by Heneni

.

Christians believe in god and then we find things to make us believe it by looking for outside stimuli that suit our already formed ideas/beliefs and concepts? How did we come up with the idea of god then in the first place? We have to come up with the concept of god, and then our brains go over to find proof of this god by looking for outside stimuli. If we believed that peter pan was real, how would we go about looking for evidence that he is real, so that we might be convinced that our beliefs are real? If our brains like to interpret stimuli, then the stimulus has to come first before the belief. That would be sensible to most folk. Yet this god of christians doesnt provide external stimuli. He is invisible and does not stimulate the senses. Our belief in this god does not come from him appearing to us. So we dont believe because we have seen, believe even though we have not seen. So we cant say that our brain is interpreting external stimuli to make this god real.





The christian god is invisible, i believe in him, but i have not seen him. And nomatter how much i believe in him he has not appeared to me. So, i want to see him sure, but he has never appeared. So, what i believe i will see does not exactly work for me or christians. And i want to see god, but i dont. Yet i still believe he is real.



People are capable of it yes. But what plausible reason is there for mass illusion of this kind? Even though there is no external stimuli, christians believe god is real. Why? What is it about our brains, our way of thinking that makes this god real despite no external stimuli. Can we say, its simply because we listen to other people and just believe them? Well then why only believe those who say there is a god, why not listen to those who say there is no-god if all we are going to do is listen to others.

Do we believe in this god because we want him to be real? If this want makes him real, then he will go away when we dont want him. He doesnt go away. If i can wish god into existance i can wish him out of existance.

Remember that I am not disputing the existence of God.
The case with Christianity is simple, according to you first question. Christians did not make up the concept of God. Neither did the Jews. And even though Hinduism is the oldest of the main religions today, they did not invent the idea either. The concept of a God or many gods has existed for a very long time. But the reason for believing on one is for another topic, as we are only dealing with Christianity now.

People do not necessarily go out looking for stimuli to interpret. We have a belief. We have an experience. Due to lack of knowledge perhaps, or some other reason, we attribute that experience to our concept of divinity. We then use it as testimony for our specific beliefs, even though it may very well not be. Even if you did experience something divine, it would be like a confirmation of your Christianity, though the same experience would be a confirmation of my hinduism. Does that make sense? We have a tendancy to interpret things the way we want. btw, only a select few people 'see' or 'hear' God- or what they believe/interpret to be God.

Still though, you haven't explined -why- you believe in the god that you do. And by that I mean the Biblical interpretations.

Heleni, as to the questions in the second last paragraph, it is very easily answered. Firstly, most of us believed in Santa claus (sorry if this example is over used) until our parents told us it was not true. However, many of us had other kids tell us that santa was not real before our parents did. What was the difference? Our parents are the ones who instilled the belief- their word is what you place your faith in. Anybody else seems unrealiable. They are probably lying. What do they know? Would you have realy questioned your parents' authenticity? Did it occur to you to do so? In the same way, it seems that adults are influenced similarly. I've seen it amongst many religious groups. They have a pastor or a guru; it makes little difference. This person seems respectable. They seem trust worthy. And you've also been indoctrinated. People from the 'outside' seem untrustworthy. Why should you listen to them?

God does not exist simply because a person wants Him to. But again, we are not debating or discussing his existence. So the question is, what makes one accept a particular interpretation of the divine? And is the reason for a particular belief valid? What is your belief based upon, and is that belief valid/reliable?

[Heneni]

Originally Posted by Humanistheart

If god taught himself to people then surely he would not have had the need to call people to prostilatize in his name as jesus does in the bible. Also, if god was the source of thought on himself for humans than you'd think humans, or at least christians, would have a more unified idea of who and what god is, and what he wants of us, yet dufferubg denominations and religions abound.

You have a point...perhaps we can discuss that in another thread. We can discuss how god reveals himself, and/or what is god's purpose for false teachings. But for the purpose of this thread, i will say, that if confusion can make god not real to christians, then he would have gone out of existance round about the time jesus was here. And if confusion could make God real, then i'm speechless.

As for science take some child development class's. Children's brains are conditioned by eternal stimuli, freinds, family, church, etc. Raising a child in a religion is molding their brain to a certain thought process. Christians thoughts tend to be particularly rigid and unimaginative as a result.

Not all christians believe god is real because they were taught from childhood that he is real. You are relying on indoctrination from childhood to explain our apparent 'condition'. And as i said before, people become christians in their adult life as well. And again, this stimuli which the child is receiving is from external sources, and the god a christian believes in does not stimulate the external senses. We dont see him, hear him speak audibly, smell him.... There are people that talk about him, but if reading cinderella stories to our daughters puts them in danger of growing up to believe she is real, then all kids should be banned from reading or being read stories.

Now about this moulding of a child in their early years. I dont believe that kids simply do whatever they are told just because daddy says so. (If they should is another matter) If that were the case there would be no rebellious children. So we are saying here, that the type of kids that are indoctrinated to believe in God are only those that always do as daddy or the pastor says and only believes what they are told. That means only good behaving kids grow up to be christians. Hmmm....any study to show that only good obedient kids who listen to everything daddy and the pastor says believe in God?

[Beaudreaux]

Originally Posted by Heneni

Present the evidence and let's examine it....

OK, I'll take a shot.

de⋅lu⋅sion /dɪˈluʒən/ [di-loo-zhuhn] - Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Christians by and large are extremely "resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." Here is a dramatization depicting such resistance.

Narrator: I believe most Christians believe the Bible when it says in Matthew 7:7

• Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Narrator: And now, "Prayer is Powerful!!!" with Christian and a Random Person

Christian: I pray to God because the Bible says "Ask and it shall be given unto you." And "If you ask your father for bread, will he instead give you a stone?" I pray to God because He answers prayers.

Random Person: Really? That hardly seems possible. If there were an all-powerful being who granted all good requests made of him, wouldn't the world be a much better place? I mean, just 5 or so people praying several hours a day could heal every sick person in America.

Christian: Well, it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes God answers your request by saying "no".

Random Person: Why would God, who supposedly loves us so much, say "no" to helping people?

Christian: Well, sometimes God helps the people we pray for in different ways. Perhaps by speeding their recovery

Random Person: But a 3 year, 2.4 million dollar study of over 1.7 million prayers showed that those who were prayed for actually developed more health complications than those that were not prayed for. It seems that praying for the sick has no positive affect whatsoever.

Christian: Well, I still believe God answers prayers and will keep praying.

Seems to fit the definition. Since there are so many Christians who believe in the "power of prayer" in this way, the delusion is mass. But perhaps I am mistaken. How do you respond to the reasoning and evidence presented in this dramatization?

[Heneni]

Originally Posted by Scarlett Wampus

There could be an innate tendency to believe in one god over many but I don't see any evidence of that. Rather, it seems down to there being a cultural & social incentive to do so.

Good point. Cultural and social incentives do play a large role, but i think it only plays a role in cultures and societies which have been exposed to christianity for a long time. During the time of jesus, very few people believed in Him, during the time of paul, the entire gentile population did not believe in the christian god. There was no reason for the gentiles to believe paul. There was no cultural or social incentive i mean for those who converted to christianity in those days. The gentile cultures never included this christian god before, and their societies were not fashioned around it. So i'm left wondering...how then and for what reason did they believe in the christian god? Not all of course, but those who did, often did so against cultural and social norms. And they were very often persecuted for it. What reason would a culture and a society have for believing in the christian god, knowing that they were probably going to get killed or persecuted for it. These days its much easier to believe in the christian god and for that reason I believe that far less who say they believe actually do.

Heneni

[Humanistheart]

Originally Posted by Heneni

Now about this moulding of a child in their early years. I dont believe that kids simply do whatever they are told just because daddy says so. (If they should is another matter) If that were the case there would be no rebellious children. So we are saying here, that the type of kids that are indoctrinated to believe in God are only those that always do as daddy or the pastor says and only believes what they are told. That means only good behaving kids grow up to be christians. Hmmm....any study to show that only good obedient kids who listen to everything daddy and the pastor says believe in God?

This is not how it works. Again, perhaps you should take messures to educate yourself to this topic. Parents don't just say 'believe' to their children like a command... well, some might, but they don't leave it at that. It's a gradual process of exposure to their beliefs. For example, you believe jesus is a messiah. You've read the bible, you should understand that jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophicies, this is not a conclusion you would draw if you were particularly familiar with the bible. So where did you get this idea? You must have been taught it.

[Heneni]

Originally Posted by Beaudreaux

OK, I'll take a shot.

de⋅lu⋅sion /dɪˈluʒən/ [di-loo-zhuhn] - Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

Christians by and large are extremely "resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." Here is a dramatization depicting such resistance.

Narrator: I believe most Christians believe the Bible when it says in Matthew 7:7

Narrator: And now, "Prayer is Powerful!!!" with Christian and a Random Person

Christian: I pray to God because the Bible says "Ask and it shall be given unto you." And "If you ask your father for bread, will he instead give you a stone?" I pray to God because He answers prayers.

Random Person: Really? That hardly seems possible. If there were an all-powerful being who granted all good requests made of him, wouldn't the world be a much better place? I mean, just 5 or so people praying several hours a day could heal every sick person in America.

Christian: Well, it doesn't always work that way. Sometimes God answers your request by saying "no".

Random Person: Why would God, who supposedly loves us so much, say "no" to helping people?

Christian: Well, sometimes God helps the people we pray for in different ways. Perhaps by speeding their recovery

Random Person: But a 3 year, 2.4 million dollar study of over 1.7 million prayers showed that those who were prayed for actually developed more health complications than those that were not prayed for. It seems that praying for the sick has no positive affect whatsoever.

Christian: Well, I still believe God answers prayers and will keep praying.

Seems to fit the definition. Since there are so many Christians who believe in the "power of prayer" in this way, the delusion is mass. But perhaps I am mistaken. How do you respond to the reasoning and evidence presented in this dramatization?

You must give it another go. The question is what is the reason, the fundamental reason that mass delusion finds its way to christians and what evidence is there that this mass delusion has a scientifically plausible reason for occuring accross cultures and societies even without stimulation or indoctrination as a child.

As far as prayer goes, whenever you talk to yourself you are praying as well. Communicating to yourself is a form of seperating yourself from yourself in order to talk to yourself.

I bet you never talk to yourself, or encourage yourself, or reprimand yourself.....

Prayer is many things, including mediation. I dont think meditation qualifies for being nuts.

Prayer isnt the reason christians believe in god. Prayer isnt the incentive they have to believe in god.

Heneni

[Papersock]

Originally Posted by Heneni

Present the evidence and let's examine it....

I do not think Christians are all mass deluded.
I think they believe in things that are not accurate.

[Heneni]

Originally Posted by Humanistheart

This is not how it works. Again, perhaps you should take messures to educate yourself to this topic. Parents don't just say 'believe' to their children like a command... well, some might, but they don't leave it at that. It's a gradual process of exposure to their beliefs. For example, you believe jesus is a messiah. You've read the bible, you should understand that jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophicies, this is not a conclusion you would draw if you were particularly familiar with the bible. So where did you get this idea? You must have been taught it.

And by the same token, people who were not brought up in christian homes, who have not gradually been indoctinated are christians and believe in god. So really what im saying is that you are going to have to find another reason why christians believe in god, because having learnt these things from their parents does not stop any of these children to abondon their beliefs when they grow up, neither does it hinder children who have not grown up in christian families to start believing in God

Heneni

[linwood]

Originally Posted by Papersock

I do not think Christians are all mass deluded.
I think they believe in things that are not accurate.

But isn`t alot of people believing in falsity the very definition of Mass Delusion?