Does man have free will? (Earth, choice, scriptures, Israel)

[Runt]

I will say we have free will, for one reason. If I do not have free will, then I am not accountable for my actions, because in truth I did not make them; god made them through me. This, in my opinion, makes predestiny a very negative, and ultimatly irresponsible view.

In response to Deahca2.

You said:

Please note the many times that people "bargained" with G-d and won. Does that not show "free will"?
How many times in scripture do people "sin"? This is done by G-d or the person? If it is done by G-d, then our lives have no point, if this is done by the person, then that would be free will, no?

More importantly, if there is predestiny and God controls everything we do, why would He make humans bargain with Him? Pray to Him? Why would he make you sin, then damn you to Hell for it? Why would he make humans create religions based on free will (like Christianity and Judaism?) if there IS no free will, and he was only making you BELIEVE there was?

If God DID make humans do these things, it would mean three things. The first is that no thought is your own; you were MADE to think it. The second is that God, like a child with a doll, has just been playing around for a while and is having some good jokes at the expense of his "toys". The third is that every religion based on free will is wrong, and we will not be punished for our sins (if we are, God is cruel as well as childish).

[Truthseeker]

It says in the scriptures: In the morning you should say: If I am not for me then wh is for me ? But when the day is done you should say There is No One Else Beside Him!. Meaning that when we wake up we should say that if I don't act as if a goal depends on me then I won't reach it. However when the day is done we should say that even if I stayed in bed the whole day the result would be the same. This is what is included in the texts of the Kabbalists. Everything that happens to us is being controlled by God.

Now on the subject of free will let me give you a practical example. The Rabash - a great kabbalist said: That if he had his way he would have spent the whole day in pyjamas. The only reason why he didn't was because it would not have been condoned by society. It wouldn't have been acceptable. Now we can equate this to our daily lives. Let me give you an example from my own experience. When I am out for a drink with my friends I would be very happy to have a glass of wine but knowing the reaction I will get off some of my friends (Basically it isn't considered macho to have a glass of wine.) I will settle for a pint like the rest of them. Now to all those people that have free will - and I am challenging the bravest amongst you - I wan't to know the next time a similar situation to the one I have given you happens to you and when it does (And it inevitably will!) then come back to me and tell me you have free will.

[Runt]

Everything that happens to us is being controlled by God.

I have to admit, this idea has some amusing implications.

For example, I could go pee on the alter of a Church, and it is not my fault at all because God made me! And the priests and congregation could not be angry with me or hold me responsible because God was really the one who did it. (Like a puppet who picks up a thimble... it is really the puppet master picking up the thimble through the puppet). Or I could go slap my sister, and I wasn't really doing it... God was doing it. Or I could go blow up a train and God did it. I could drop out of high school and it wouldn't matter. I could commit suicide.... The list goes on and on...

[Truthseeker]

Hi Deacha2,

It depends what your notion of sin is. However the biggest sin is that if a person thinks that there is another force beside The Creator becuase that person believes there is another force beside him. Everything that is happening to us is but a consequence of his actions.

Now people say that wars are bad, suffering is bad, poverty, starvation, disease ect ect are all bad because we humans fell them to be bad. If something is pleasant to our senses say an ice cold beer on a hot afternoon then we construe it as being pleasant to us because that is how our senses process it. And something which is unpleasnt to us - say being physically attacked - is because our senses construe it in such a a way as to be unpleasnt. However all these so called bad things are sent to us for a specific purpose in order that man will turn to The Creator and realise that the root cause of all mankinds suffering is the deisre to recieve for himself.

You remeber the story of Moses ? Well what that story signifies is this:
Pharoah (Our egoism, our desire to recieve for ourselves, selfishness call it what you will) Says to Moses "Who is The Creator that you should serve him" Meaning why should I serve God when I can serve myself and give myself pleasure. (And that is what man is - a pleasure seeker! Unfortunately man is given a body that can never be satisfied) Now remember in that story The Egyptians started to beat the Israelites (The Eygpt in us being egoism and the Israel in us being that which wanted to come in direct contact with The Creator) Well what this means is that Israel started to suffer becuase of its own egoism. Essentially it causes people harm and not joy. And that is essentially what is happening today we are constantly chasing pleasures that cannot satsify us and we are suffering becasue of it. I mean really look at all the worlds trouble and tell me that the desire to recieve for ourselves is not the root cause of it all ? Why do we still have people on the streets in rich western countries ? Why is it that there isn't a generation on this earth that hasn't seen a war ? Why is it that genocide similar to the Holocaust is still allowed to go on today ? The answer boils simply down to our egoism.

Luckily there is a solution. When God parts the red sea for Moses Moses asks God to be free from egypt, from his desire to recieve for himself and that is what humanity in large numbers should pray for. Such a prayer is worth ten thousand times more than any prayer for say a ferrari or any sort of material gain. We individually do not have the power to break our egoism but through the study of Kabbalah we have the opportunity to invoke divine help in this matter and cross the red sea (Our egoism) and come into the spiritual world whilst still living in this world.


For more details please see www.kabbalah.info

Hope this helps


deahca2
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Total posts: 12
Location: Edmonton
Gender: Female
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Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: free choice.

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I hate to be a party pooper, but, I still disagree. Please note the many times that people "bargained" with G-d and won. Does that not show "free will"?
How many times in scripture do people "sin"? This is done by G-d or the person? If it is done by G-d, then our lives have no point, if this is done by the person, then that would be free will, no? I don't say we have COMPLETE free will, of course, it is limited. HOWEVER, we're not sock puppets of G-d but children of G-d with the priviledges accorded ( free will). debate?
Love Deah

[Truthseeker]

Dear Runt,

Thank you for your great email:

You are right you are not accountable for your actions at all. Good news isn't it ? We liken this situation to a horse and a rider. The horse goes left it can go right, it can trot, cantor or gallop. The horse thinks that it is in control of these actions but in truth the rider is the one controlling the horse's actions and that is how the creator controls us. If you equate every thought you get and then realise that it is God who sent you that thought then you are drawing yourself closer to him.

But you say that God is cruel - No he is not cruel. What he is doing is bringing us to a very quick realisation that our egoism is what is causing the harm and if we only asked him to be rid of it we would feel that all of his actions on us have been good. This is what is called faith above reason. When we destroy our egoism (Cross the red sea) we will see he was right. Or put in another way If a human being had a different set of senses to us he may construe something which you and I taste as sweet to be sour and vis versa.

You are also right in your other points if it works like this why does God make us sin ? What is the point of our existence ? Right well lets deal with the first point. By thinking there is another force controlling the world you are already in a state of what we call worshipping foreign gods. He created the world didn't he so who do you think runs it ? The second point - the point about our existence is this: We were created in order that we should desire to leave our egoism. We essentially only have one point of free will that we can be applauded for and that is to choose the right environment for the correction of our souls. That is the flight from egoism turned into ulturism. To choose the right environment is the desire to be with those who desire to study Kabbalah. (www.kabbalah.info)

Every human being will at some point come to this recognition. Those who feel that the most important thing in life is to come to the creator have a job to do in life which is the spiritual liberation of all mankind.

[best friend]

hello every body
i have read an article about mans free will, its kinda long, but it was summarized in 7 points, and i would like to share it with you.if u want to check the whole article i added the link to it in the bottom.
.................................................. .........................
1. Divine Destiny, which you may call it Divine determination and arrangement, is dominant in the universe, while not excluding man from having a free will.

2. Since God is beyond all time and space and everything is included in His Knowledge, He encompasses time with its past, present and future divisions in a single, undivided point. This subtle point can be made easier to understand also through the following comparison,
When you are in a room, your view is restricted to the room. But if you look from high enough, you can see the whole of the city in which you live. As you rise higher and higher, the scope of your vision will gradually be broadened. The world is seen from the moon as small as a blue marble. It is the same with time as it is with space. In some such way, all time and space are encompassed by God as a single, undivided point, into which the past, present and future are united.

3. Since all time and space are included in God’s Knowledge as a single point, God (pre-)recorded everything to take place until the Day of Judgement. He copies out this record both as a whole in different ‘books’ and individually for each person.

4. We do not do something because God (pre-)recorded that we should do it, but since God knew beforehand that we would do it, He (pre-)recorded it.

5. There are not two different destinies, one for cause, the other for the effect. Rather, Destiny is one and relates to both cause and effect at the same time. Man’s free will as a cause of man’s acts, is included in Destiny.

6. God guides us to good things and actions, and allows and advises us to use our will-power to good deeds, in return for which He promises us eternal happiness in Paradise.

7. Man possesses free will, which makes almost no contribution to his good acts, although it can cause deadly sins and destruction wherever it operates. Therefore, man should use his free-will for his own benefit by praying to God continuously, so that he may enjoy the blessings of Paradise, a fruit of the chain of good deeds, and attain to eternal happiness. Further, man should always seek God‘s forgiveness for his sins in order to refrain from evil deeds and to be saved from the torments of Hell, a fruit of the accursed chain of evil deeds. Prayer and putting one’s trust in God greatly strengthen the inclination to good, and repentance and seeking God’s forgiveness cut the inclination to evil and break its transgressions.


http://www.fethullahgulen.org/essentials/pg20.html#b

[hr:9daa3f8c9b]

[Engyo]

As a Buddhist, the opposite view takes effect. I am 100% totally responsible for my actions, and their results. Likewise, if I don't like the way my life is today, only I can change it. Truly a different way of viewing the world and how we live in it.

[Colin_Admin]

Originally Posted by best friend

3. Since all time and space are included in God’s Knowledge as a single point, God (pre-)recorded everything to take place until the Day of Judgement. He copies out this record both as a whole in different ‘books’ and individually for each person.

4. We do not do something because God (pre-)recorded that we should do it, but since God knew beforehand that we would do it, He (pre-)recorded it.

5. There are not two different destinies, one for cause, the other for the effect. Rather, Destiny is one and relates to both cause and effect at the same time. Man’s free will as a cause of man’s acts, is included in Destiny.

6. God guides us to good things and actions, and allows and advises us to use our will-power to good deeds, in return for which He promises us eternal happiness in Paradise.

7. Man possesses free will, which makes almost no contribution to his good acts, although it can cause deadly sins and destruction wherever it operates. Therefore, man should use his free-will for his own benefit by praying to God continuously, so that he may enjoy the blessings of Paradise, a fruit of the chain of good deeds, and attain to eternal happiness. Further, man should always seek God‘s forgiveness for his sins in order to refrain from evil deeds and to be saved from the torments of Hell, a fruit of the accursed chain of evil deeds. Prayer and putting one’s trust in God greatly strengthen the inclination to good, and repentance and seeking God’s forgiveness cut the inclination to evil and break its transgressions.


[hr:35324c3c79]

Well if God "pre-records" as they call it then how is that free will. These points say that he guides us, how does he guide us besides with the Bible. But the Bible isnt adjusted to the modern times. I understand that he can see everything but if he can see what happens in the future then isnt that eliminating free will.

Originally Posted by best friend

4. We do not do something because God (pre-)recorded that we should do it, but since God knew beforehand that we would do it, He (pre-)recorded it.
[hr:35324c3c79]

I am still fuzzy on this point because from what it looks like to me is that you dont have free will.

[deahca2]

May I point out that G-d invented both good AND evil. why? Free choice.
What is the choice with just good or just evil? levels of good or evil. Hardly a choice.
Not that I'm in favour of evil, lol.
Sin? well, sin to me may not be sin to you. I have a framework of "sin" from G-d and I have a conscience that tells me when I PERSONALLY sin.
However, I see sin as mistakes ( some on purpose , lol). We learn from our mistakes hopefully. Maybe that is point?
If there is no "free choice" what's the point of this human existence? I haven't answered that one yet.
does not Free choice by the way make our individual or societal standards?
We choose that option A is bad and option B is good. Option A is therefore to be avoided and option B taken?
We can , of course, fight against our societal mores ( laws) but , does the phrase " I fought the law and the law one" ring a bell? lol
Perhaps I'm old fashioned, but, I do have a set of standards made by my own free will. I am not a fan of anyone that has none. Amoral people are either lazy or devoid of conscience ( rare).
going too far off topic to put our laws and standards with free choice?
deah

[Runt]

In response to Truthseeker--

This energy we call God is a polar force, creative on the one hand and destructive on the other. The creative side is always generating life. The destructive force is permanently destroying. The concepts of “good” and “evil” are human concepts applied incorrectly to God’s powers (or the results of them), and with them are sin and redemption. Redemption is as dangerous a view as predestiny; both beliefs blind us to the fact that we are, indeed, accountable for our actions, and that no matter how much we beg for forgiveness, once you act, you cannot unact. We are responsible because God is everywhere, in everything and everybody. In short, God is everything. Incidentally, although everything is not God, everything is PART of God, ourselves included. God’s powers of creation and destruction are given to every living creature to wield as we please, and because God has free will, so do we. This means we MUST BE RESPONSIBLE! Both our creative and our destructive powers are mightier than we believe (and with our advances in technology, are becoming even greater) and as such they are dangerous. If we blind ourselves with the belief that it is okay to abuse the powers of God because It will undo the damage we cause or forgive us, we can cause serious harm!

Second, we are not on this earth to learn to ignore the Ego! We are spiritual beings who were once completely immersed in God who are having a temporary physical experience before returning to God. Life is a brief escape from that vast pool of all knowing Consciousness (“God”). We were put on this world to live life, not to try to escape from it! We will only be here a short time before we return to God. Enjoy the time you have! It IS an experience! Become deeply immersed in your interests and develop your talents. Enjoy your emotions, allow yourself to feel them, but do not let them control you (you also have a mind for a reason). When you join God you will not experience these emotions, so enjoy them while you can. Love, passion, hate, anger are among the greatest diversions of all. How much more immersed in your life can you become than when you are at the peak of an emotion?

There is no “soul” to “save”. We will rejoin God whether we were an axe-murderer or a saint. “Heaven” is merely the state in which you become totally immersed in God. Hell is something we humans create here on earth. We as humans consist of 3 parts: the Consciousness (the sum of all the energy that makes us “alive” and is a part of God), the Personality (a one-of-a-kind combination of genes, environmental influences, and life experiences), and the Body (the physical matter that the other two inhabit). When you die your Personality will cease, your Body will decay, and your Consciousness will immediately flee to join the vast pool of Consciousness, into which it will be absorbed and will immediately know everything. However, you as an individual will have ceased to exist.