Do miracles warrant belief? (Jesus, Messiah, followers, America, preaching)

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

My point though No's, is that the miracles that happen in science need no belief for them to be real. They are real. There is no speculation, no "ifs." Which should be focused more on, the miracles with the "ifs," or the miracles without?

Those aren't miracles, though. It's a great rhetorical tool to call a wonderful new discovery "miraculous," but it's akin to a teenager calling another player in a video game a "god," and I have heard that very thing. It's hyperbole.

A miracle is something that, frankly, is either "bends" or "breaks" the laws of nature as we know them. The closest we come to the scientific miracle is something happens that is so improbable by our perception that it shouldn't have happened (like a speeding car stopping on a dime just a few inches away from a child).

The second thing is that in comparing the "ifs" of science and the "ifs" of miracles, we have merely changed the nature of the ifs. An if in religion requires trust in its source. An if in science requires trust in the assumptions on why something is repeatable. The latter is less drastic, but it is still an if. We may be able to predict and explain a phenomena now, and thus use it in technology, but find out in a hundred years (or even tomorrow) that the definition is inaccurate. Science, thus, still has ifs.

If you want to avoid ifs, then you must either become a radical skeptic and never make a truth assertion. No matter what we do, we encounter those ifs, whether it is in science, faith, or day to day life. We only make decisions on what kind of ifs we'll trust, and how far we'll go. There are no certainties in life.

[skyglass]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

"What is your definition of a miracle?"

I was stating how the miracles that the apostles did in the bible are happening today but not in religion but science. I did not say what my definition was, it didn't matter.

Though the term miracle could be used in a more broader sense, here is the definition of a miracle, 'An extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by nature or scientific laws, attributed to a divine agency.' From the Oxford Concise Dictionary.

Bearing this definition in mind, there is no such thing as a scientific or medical miracle.

[Master Vigil]

Here is the point. Back then, what we do now would be "bending the rules of nature and science". And they attributed that to a divine agency. If we took modern medical doctors back to the time of Jesus and had them heal the sick and expell demons, they would be known as miracles. So what makes them any different? The only difference is the time. Miracles are becoming more and more rare these days, why would that be? Maybe its because all that used to be known as "miraculous" happens everyday in ER's, and hospitals.

[HelpMe]

does anything?

[No*s]

That's a good point MV, but do you suppose Jesus healed with science, though? I don't think he had access to the medical miracles we no whave, and some of the ones attributed to him would be regarded as miraculous today. If we're going to take that path then we have to postulate some way for him to have the technology, and if we don't, then we have to have something else.

[michel]

Hi Master Vigil

It has always been my belief that the miracles performed by Jesus were akin to what we call magic nowdays. Jesus was an extremely advances 'Spirit' in my view, and therefore had access to knowledge and power that those whom he had around him could not understand except by calling his acts Magic.

Dont misunderstand me; I'm not 'playing down' his work and example to the world. I think he was is the most wonderful example of perfection in humanity.

What I mean is that Magic, or miracles, to me, is the use of powers (scientific or other) that are unnexplainable to most people because those acts are effected using a power or ability which is just above the level of cognition ny the onlookers.

[Dr. Nosophoros]

I agree with the "science is magic until it is proven to be science" take on it, that said, I also believe that science, with all it's benefits and discoveries, can become as much a religion as anything else, but that can also come with the limitations of science of whatever age you are in.

I think the "intelligent design" argument is a good example of this, the whole premise of believing a god created us relies on the fact that science hasn't completely explained the what's and whys, so it's easy for those that wish or need to believe in outside forces to say science hasn't explained it yet so our existence must be due to some god(s) etc. or "magic". I am sure that the real reasons why a person got sick were as elusive to early doctors as the full explanation of "intelligent design" is today to some but in time as technology advanced, knowledge and methods grew, the reasons people get sick have been pretty much explained, it was just a matter of time.

There are many ideas that scientists can dismiss out of hand simply because it does not fit within the prevailing parameteres of scientific logic or technologies, no matter the age. What science and scientists cannot currently explain by their current sets of logic and technologies does not mean that it is not science (imagine life before the microscope) or automatically prove that some god(s) or spirits outside of ourselves caused whatever it is that happened. It wasn't so many hundreds of years ago that "cutting edge" science maintained that people got sick from tiny demons getting into your body (they were close, germs and bacteria etc. could be considered "demons" in a way LOL ), and that animals died or crops failed sometimes because of "witches". We can look back at it now and laugh, but I feel the wisest people are the people that realize that they may be the biggest fools. We are living in an age right now, it's different, but not that much different if you really look at it.

My personal opinion is that science, with all it's discoveries, still has not really scratched the surface of the full mysteries of our humanity, I also feel that many religious systems sell a person short of their full capacity due to that misunderstanding and sometimes because of a wish to control socially or politically, all of which (science included), can dim or obscure the full potential of our humanity if we put complete and unswerving faith in the currently accepted "knowns". This could easily become a magic, religious magic , power of prayer etc. thread as I feel it ties in with what you are talking about, but that is for another thread.

So after that longwinded response, I will try to answer the question, I would have to say that what may be classified as a "miracle" is classified as such by those that see no other explanation in their current understanding of reality and need one to make sense out of the unknown, and sometimes use that classification to justify their faith or beliefs that they already had, we human animals have an unlimited capacity for self deceit. So I guess the answer is yes, "miracles" do warrant belief in those that think like that- My opinion anyway.

[skyglass]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Here is the point. Back then, what we do now would be "bending the rules of nature and science". And they attributed that to a divine agency. If we took modern medical doctors back to the time of Jesus and had them heal the sick and expell demons, they would be known as miracles. So what makes them any different? The only difference is the time. Miracles are becoming more and more rare these days, why would that be? Maybe its because all that used to be known as "miraculous" happens everyday in ER's, and hospitals.

So what makes them different? One is a miracle and the other is the result of medical science. One is an act of faith the other not. Time has nothing to do with it. People who are sick are still being healed in the name of Jesus.

When I first became a Christian I prayed for someone who had problems with her bones. Though she was on medication, she was regularly in pain. I was so new as a Christian that I did not pray out loud when I placed my hand on her, in case she objected. When I finished praying for her in the name of Jesus, all her aches and pains left her and it remained so for several months.

Both the medication she was on and my act of faith desired the same result. Assuming that both worked, one would be a miracle and the other not.

If I asked the question, could a man fly? You may answer that if he trained to be a pilot and got into an aircraft, he could fly to several 1000 feet. However, if he was able to fly to several 1000 feet without the aid of any apparatus this would be an extraordinary event because he would be breaking the laws of gravity. Both have the same result but one would be a miracle and the other not.

You said that miracles are becoming more and more rare these days. How would you know that?

[skyglass]

Originally Posted by michel

Hi Master Vigil

It has always been my belief that the miracles performed by Jesus were akin to what we call magic nowdays. Jesus was an extremely advances 'Spirit' in my view, and therefore had access to knowledge and power that those whom he had around him could not understand except by calling his acts Magic.

Dont misunderstand me; I'm not 'playing down' his work and example to the world. I think he was is the most wonderful example of perfection in humanity.

What I mean is that Magic, or miracles, to me, is the use of powers (scientific or other) that are unnexplainable to most people because those acts are effected using a power or ability which is just above the level of cognition ny the onlookers.

Are you saying that magic and miracles are similar?