Do miracles warrant belief? (Jesus, Messiah, followers, America, preaching)

[Master Vigil]

The point is, if the hand of god played a part in the miracles in the bible may or may not be true, but most of all, they may not of even happened at all. We can debate that all night. The divine intervention is not what matters to me. It is the fact that we all talk about the great miracles that happened in the bible but we have no idea if they are factual or completely mytological. But we DO know that miracles are happening all the time through medicine and science. Not through religious intercession. So why focus on something that may or may not be true, when we can focus on what IS real and true?

[Master Vigil]

"That is all up to our beliefs in this case, Vigil."

No belief is needed Soul. It happens, we can see it. There is no beating around the bush with religion. It is REAL!!! It isn't in some book that may or may not be true.

And jewscout, so they would then recognize that god is telling them to stop reading an old book and look at the divine miracles hes allowing to happen now.

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

But we DO know that miracles are happening all the time through medicine and science. Not through religious intercession. So why focus on something that may or may not be true, when we can focus on what IS real and true?

That is to believe that what is going on constitutes a "miracle". Why not simply the logical conclusion to generations of scientific and medical research. Our own advancement as a species to control the environment around us. I mean what is a miracle?

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

But now, expelling demons and curing the sick is done all the time with the miracles of science and medicine. But religions fail to have any miracles like this today. ?

Miracles happen every day.....

Priest offers $5000 to disprove miracles of Lourdes
A Sydney Catholic priest has challenged sceptics of religious miracles, posting a $5000 bounty for anyone who can prove the Lourdes miracles he has investigated are fakes.

Medical science might explain some cures attributed to the shrine in southern France but not every instance of miraculous healing, says Paul Glynn, a Marist Brother.

Full article here.

Two Lourdes Miracles and a Nobel Laureate: What Really Happened?
Another good article here.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

Ok, how about back then, miracles are what helped people believe jesus was the messiah and all that stuff. But now, expelling demons and curing the sick is done all the time with the miracles of science and medicine. But religions fail to have any miracles like this today. Could this be that the miracles talked of in biblical times were just stories? And are not possible? And would that prove that science can show what religion cannot?

Do you have a reference that shows that medicine/science has expelled demons?

[Master Vigil]

Jewscout, the miracles such as "expelling demons" as T3Gah puts it. And seeing what modern science can do these days I believe definitely constitute as miracles.

Scott, that was an awesome site. And as I understand there are many things that happen that science cannot explain yet. But I emphasize the YET. I believe what happened at Lourdes will someday be easily explained. But I definitely believe the happenings at Lourdes is more valid than those healing you see done on television. HAHA... Trust me, I do believe that science does not have all the answers, nor will it for a long time. But it seems to be presenting more miracles a day than lourdes could ever imagine. And their is no speculation as to what did it, we know what did it. Science did it.

Only the fact that since modern psychological studies, no exorcisms have been successfully done. The history of psychology shows that what was once considered to be "demons" is now seen to be simply mental illness which is definitely curable by modern science. So yes, what the bible talks about as "expelling demons" happens everyday. And the point is, we don't have to wonder if it was just a story, or wonder if the miracles only happen if we believe they did. We KNOW they did. And we KNOW what made them happen.

[No*s]

MV,

It depends entirely on your presuppositions (like almost anything).

For instance (and you seem to lean toward a position like this), there is Clarke's famous quote "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." If you look at miracles in this way, it may be a natural phenomena, alien technology, or some other natural explanation. If you look at it this way, then miracles present no binding force. Sure, they're a plus for a system, but they don't have any kick.

However, on the converse, you may interpret it neutrally, simply saying the faith has connection to the supernatural. You have said you believe in spirits. The numerous (and certainly not always ancient) miracle stories may just come from spirits, and any miracle claiming to be from God may, in fact, be from just some spirit.

Thirdly, if you disallow the first two, then yes, if you believe the miracles occured, they do warrant belief. For nstance, the Holy Fire is a very telling miracle to me ([url]http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Miracles/Pascha_Holy_Light/index.shtml[\url]), and it does still occur. There are other such miracles, so antiquity isn't the only place where it happens (and they happen in faiths incompatible with mine as well). If we allow a set of miracles to have come from God, then said miracle pretty much does warrant belief. That's the big "if," though.

[skyglass]

Originally Posted by Master Vigil

In another thread, the idea of the apostles and jesus performing miracles was what brought upon believers. They expelled demons, healed the sick, etc... But nowadays, we have doctors who heal the sick, and psychiatrists who "expell demons" by curing mental illness. Could it be that the only miracles that exist today are found in science and medicine? Does that mean that our knowledge of scientific and medical miracles warrant our belief in them and our disbelief in religion which fails to include miracles?

What is your definition of a miracle?

[Master Vigil]

"What is your definition of a miracle?"

I was stating how the miracles that the apostles did in the bible are happening today but not in religion but science. I did not say what my definition was, it didn't matter.

[Master Vigil]

My point though No's, is that the miracles that happen in science need no belief for them to be real. They are real. There is no speculation, no "ifs." Which should be focused more on, the miracles with the "ifs," or the miracles without?