Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #171  
Old 04-03-2009, 02:10 PM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Online!
Religion: Judaism
Title:Conquering Member
Shield of Knowledge: Awarded for outstanding demonstration of high knowledge in a particular field - Issue reason:  Shield of Research: Awarded for meticulous attention to detail and comprehensive reading around a subject - Issue reason: For thorough research in regards to different topics through the years. Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason: For your valuable contributions to the forum over the years. Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For over 20,000 posts. Congrats Jay.  :) 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,890
Frubals: 3384
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
Ok, just for starters, check out the Jesus Seminar.
I have been following the Jesus Seminar for years. Now please answer my question.
__________________
Muhammad Hussein Abu Khdier Nadeem Nawara Mohammad Salameh Eyal Yifrach Gil-Ad Shaar Naftali Frenkel
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 04-03-2009, 02:14 PM
Oberon Offline
Religion: Mostly Agnostic
Title:Esteemed Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern US
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,164
Frubals: 153
Oberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversation
Default

Quote:
I have been following the Jesus Seminar for years. Now please answer my question.
They deem it to be a historical saying of Jesus. Isn't that your question?

As for the other question, I already said it was impossible. However, I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by "large parts." I would say that there is a scholarly consensus that dozens of sayings of and parables Jesus are historical (i.e. he said them, or the same basic thing), and probably on a few of the healings/exorcisms. That is what I call "large parts."
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 04-03-2009, 02:20 PM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Online!
Religion: Judaism
Title:Conquering Member
Shield of Knowledge: Awarded for outstanding demonstration of high knowledge in a particular field - Issue reason:  Shield of Research: Awarded for meticulous attention to detail and comprehensive reading around a subject - Issue reason: For thorough research in regards to different topics through the years. Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason: For your valuable contributions to the forum over the years. Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For over 20,000 posts. Congrats Jay.  :) 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,890
Frubals: 3384
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
They deem it to be a historical saying of Jesus. Isn't that your question?
If you don't know the question by now, let's drop it until you're able or willing to be more attentive.
__________________
Muhammad Hussein Abu Khdier Nadeem Nawara Mohammad Salameh Eyal Yifrach Gil-Ad Shaar Naftali Frenkel
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 04-03-2009, 09:45 PM
dogsgod Offline
Religion: neutral
Title:Restricted
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,872
Frubals: 7579850
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
Default

The following is why Oberon is not taken seriously.

argument from authority
(argumentum ad verecundiam): using the words of an "expert" or authority as the bases of the argument instead of using the logic or evidence that supports an argument. (e.g., Professor so-and-so believes the gospels are of real and actual events) Simply because an authority makes a claim does not necessarily mean he got it right. If an arguer presents the testimony from an expert, look to see if it accompanies reason and sources of evidence behind it.

We're still waiting for reason and sources of evidence to back up Oberons appeals to authority. Personally, I'm not holding my breath.
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 04-04-2009, 04:35 AM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Online!
Religion: Judaism
Title:Conquering Member
Shield of Knowledge: Awarded for outstanding demonstration of high knowledge in a particular field - Issue reason:  Shield of Research: Awarded for meticulous attention to detail and comprehensive reading around a subject - Issue reason: For thorough research in regards to different topics through the years. Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason: For your valuable contributions to the forum over the years. Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For over 20,000 posts. Congrats Jay.  :) 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 27,890
Frubals: 3384
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Jayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the busJayhawker Soule drives commuters crazy by singing The Frubal Song over and over on the bus
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogsgod View Post
The following is why Oberon is not taken seriously.

argument from authority
(argumentum ad verecundiam): using the words of an "expert" or authority as the bases of the argument instead of ...
Quote:
On the other hand, arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have detailed knowledge of a great many topics, we must often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true, in contrast to claiming that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism: It can be true, the truth can merely not be proven, or made probable by attributing it to the authority, and the assumption that the assertion was true might be subject to criticism and turn out to have actually been wrong. If a criticism appears that contradicts the authority's statement, then merely the fact that the statement originated from the authority is not an argument for ignoring the criticism.

- source
There is zero justification for not taking Oberon seriously ...
__________________
Muhammad Hussein Abu Khdier Nadeem Nawara Mohammad Salameh Eyal Yifrach Gil-Ad Shaar Naftali Frenkel
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 04-04-2009, 08:54 AM
dogsgod Offline
Religion: neutral
Title:Restricted
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,872
Frubals: 7579850
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
There is zero justification for not taking Oberon seriously ...
You've taken one line from the statement I provided and removed it out of its context. Of course we must rely on authorities in any given area. They still have to provide their reasoning and evaluation of the evidence. I don't take Oberon seriously because he merely points to authority because they are considered authorities by his circular line reasoning, in that he points to whatever scholar that supports his point of view. I've asked him repeatedly to provide their line of reasoning but he refuses to do so.
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 04-04-2009, 09:05 AM
logician Offline
Religion: atheist
Title:Restricted
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 6,891
Frubals: 395
logician thinks you may have a couple of frubals looselogician thinks you may have a couple of frubals looselogician thinks you may have a couple of frubals looselogician thinks you may have a couple of frubals looselogician thinks you may have a couple of frubals looselogician thinks you may have a couple of frubals loose
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojourner View Post
1. When was Ransom Ball born? (And he's documented!) (But you can't use the internet, or any encyclopedia.)
2. When did Ransom Ball die? (Same applies as above)
3. Jesus was part of an oral culture. Had Jesus lived today, he'd have written stuff.
4. Why is there practically no historical evidence for you?

Julius Caesar is a really poor example. Dwight Eisenhower had mountains of historical documents, his own writings, currency with his likeness, etc. backing up his existence. OH YEAH! He was leader of a major world power! Never mind. Where are your mountains of documentation? Where are your coins? Maybe you're just a figment of our imaginations...

Actually, my wallet is full of documentation that I exist, there are mountains of paper documents filed away that are evidence of my existence in government, educationl, business, and medical offices, so your argument is a joke.

Again, there is NO hard historical evidence whatsoever that a man remotely resembling the JEsus of the Bible ever existed. We cannot assume he existed because god-myths quite qimiliar to other pre-existenct god-myths were written by unknown authors 2000 years ago about some miracle worker named Jesus well after his supposed life. They have no historical veracity whatsoever.
__________________
The devil made me do it.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 04-04-2009, 09:33 AM
Oberon Offline
Religion: Mostly Agnostic
Title:Esteemed Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern US
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,164
Frubals: 153
Oberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversationOberon tries to work the phrase, 'more fun than a barrel of frubals' into every conversation
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogsgod View Post
I don't take Oberon seriously because he merely points to authority because they are considered authorities by his circular line reasoning, in that he points to whatever scholar that supports his point of view. .

Not scholars who support my point of view. Most of the citations I have given are from scholars I disagree with. My point is that all experts in the field agree Jesus was historical. And I also gave a general intro into why I think the gospels fall into the category of ancient biography.
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 04-04-2009, 10:11 AM
dogsgod Offline
Religion: neutral
Title:Restricted
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,872
Frubals: 7579850
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
Not scholars who support my point of view. Most of the citations I have given are from scholars I disagree with. My point is that all experts in the field agree Jesus was historical. And I also gave a general intro into why I think the gospels fall into the category of ancient biography.
All experts in the field agree Jesus was historical? Of course they do, only a non-expert would question that.
__________________
.
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 04-04-2009, 11:45 AM
dogsgod Offline
Religion: neutral
Title:Restricted
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,872
Frubals: 7579850
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!dogsgod says HEY wake up the administrator!  We ran out of silly comments!
Default

Getting back to the original post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by roli View Post
Or did he actually walk the earth and do the things he claimed he did ?

And if he did, is there something we should be paying attention to?
"The core of the Jesus story is the Son of man, who has been hidden from the beginning of time, who will be revealed when the end of the ages is near, and who will serve as the judge of men and angels when the earth is destroyed and the New Jerusalem of heaven comes as the place of inhabitance for the righteous men of all nations where death will be abolished and the righteous live with the Son of man for ever and ever. That is who Christ is and that is who Jesus is, and that figure is a purely mythical character that existed long before the emergence of the specific story of Jesus, whose story is not fundamentally different from a dozen or so other stories from the same time and place, other than the specific name of the savior and the method of his death.


Why was the mode of death crucifixion in the early Jesus story? Because this was the mode of death suffered by the people under the occupation of Rome from which they sought deliverance (He is suffering what we are suffering in order to take our suffering away).

Why was the name Jesus used? Possibly because Yeshua son of Nun was the name of the supposed successor of Moses, about whom popular stories were still being written. Possibly this was related to the widely circulating publication of Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, though we know about the the life of this Jesus and it has nothing in common with the Jesus story other than him being considered a wise person. Possibly because of the meaning of the name, which means "Yahweh saves". Or, possibly because the name Jesus was one of the most common names and thus "Jesus Christ" was seen as an "Everyman" name, like G.I. Joe or John Doe, i.e. "Joe Messiah". Jesus was, after all, supposed to be taking on the sins of "every man".


Every act and saying of the Jesus character has precedents in the Hebrew scriptures and non-scriptural writings, either directly or indirectly. This fact is indeed at the core of traditional and conservative Christian belief, yet this very obvious fact is somehow ignored by liberal Christians and secular historians.
Daniel 7:
13 As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven.
Mark 13:
26 Then they will see 'the Son of Man coming in clouds' with great power and glory. 27 Then he will send out the angels, and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
To shy away from the obvious roots of the Jesus myth within Jewish mythology is to deny that the ancient Jews had mythology. To deny that mythology is at the core of the Jesus story is to deny the obvious fact that most of the Jesus story existed long before the supposed time of Jesus. To claim that in spite of the preceding mythology the Jesus story may still "be true" or be "based on reality" is to claim that the preceding mythology is not mythology, but in fact literally true and real prophesy."
Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

Viewing these religious texts as mythology does not conflict with our written history which does not include an actual Jesus. No one wrote of him while he supposedly lived, and no physical artifacts. There is nothing outside the religious texts to corroborate the events surrounding an actual Jesus. We have a religious belief built upon religious scripture which makes sense. There is no conflict here, no contradictions to smooth out, no cognitive dissonance. All is well within the realm of mythology. Is Jesus a mythological character? Apparently so.
__________________
.

Last edited by dogsgod; 04-04-2009 at 11:53 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:24 AM.


Copyright © 2014 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.