Is the Trinity Biblical? (Jesus Christ, priests, ritual, reject, Moses)

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by quick

The Westminster Confession quote above covers it, but if you want to see the Trinity mentioned in the Bible in the same sentence, well, here you go:

Matthew 28

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[1] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

This was the risen Christ speaking to his disciples at the end of the book of Matthew.

To quote Yeshua, You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel! Yes, you have a spot where three are named, you also have (He declared all foods clean). The problem is that you have no place to verify or corroborate your scripture. Believe what ever you feel is right. But, when you teach someone a false doctrine there is a penalty to pay. Just be careful what you teach, I, myself would hate to be "least in the kingdom". It is your choice!

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by SpiritualSon

"I believe in God the father almighty CREATOR of Heaven and Earth. " Now that is contrary to the Word, which teaches in the Gospel of John, "All things were made by the WORD [Incarnate Jesus] and without the WORD was nothing made that was made." Jehovah God is the Word, and became Man under the name Jesus Christ. Amen

Harry

Not contrary!
Torah is the "Word of God" Yeshua/Jesus is the first born of creation/Word of God! Ge. 1- Jn. 1- Col 1:16 All say Yeshua/Jesus is the word of God, the Word of God created the heavens and Earth. God sent His Word into the World as the written Torah, as the Word made flesh.
Yeshua is the "Sent One".

[dharveymi]

Ronald,

The same chapter of John says concerning the Word: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If the Word is the Torah, how did the Torah make all things?

It says concerning the Word that, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

Is the author talking about how the Torah was put on the shelf with other books?

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but the Word is Jesus. He made everything through the power of God. They both can rightly claim the title of Creator, Jesus spoke the words that brought the worlds into existence, but it was the power of the Father that He used to do it and for His glory.

[Ronald]

Originally Posted by dharveymi

Ronald,

The same chapter of John says concerning the Word: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

If the Word is the Torah, how did the Torah make all things?

It says concerning the Word that, "He came unto his own, and his own received him not."

Is the author talking about how the Torah was put on the shelf with other books?

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but the Word is Jesus. He made everything through the power of God. They both can rightly claim the title of Creator, Jesus spoke the words that brought the worlds into existence, but it was the power of the Father that He used to do it and for His glory.

First, Yeshua is the word of God, not God. God sent his word/Yeshua as the living word, the impress image of God. God used his word to create heaven and the Earth. His word by his own admission can do nothing except what the Father/God wills. So the word being sent to create the universe doesn't claim authorship of the word nor creation.
How does he or did did he do all these things? I was not there, so I must take his word for what I see! The Hebrews have recorded the word, I have no doubt it is true. This is the term faith.

[dharveymi]

That makes sense to me.

[Scott1]

Hiya all,

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

but, it is not that easy........ the Catechism teaches:

237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God". To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel's faith before the Incarnation of God's Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.


It seems that some here need an education about the early Christian church.....

dharveymi The doctrine of the trinity is a perverse pagan heresy. It was formulated through political strife and warfare in the Catholic church in the 3rd century. The authors of the Bible did not believe in the trinity, and neither do any true Christians.

3rd Century???????? Not even close:

"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

There are several more early Christian (Catholic) writers to add to this LONG before the 3rd century. Commentary about the Council of Nicea is often misleading. Everyone needs to understand that just because something is defined at a council does not mean that it was not COMMON knowledge to Christians at the time. Most councils were held when a heretical group forced the Church to infallibly define something as doctrine........ and in this case:

The early Christians were quick to spot new heresies. In the third century, Sabellius, a Libyan priest who was staying at Rome, invented a new one. He claimed there is only one person in the Godhead, so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one person with different "offices," rather than three persons who are one being in the Godhead, as the orthodox position holds.

Of course, people immediately recognized that Sabellius’s teaching contradicted the historic faith of the Church, and he was quickly excommunicated. His heresy became known as Sabellianism, Modalism, and Patripassianism. It was called Sabellianism after its founder, Modalism after the three modes or offices which it claimed the one person of the Trinity occupied, and Patripassianism after its implication that the person of the Father (Patri-) suffered (-passion) on the cross when Jesus died.

Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One office of a person cannot go to be with another office of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).

Modalism quickly died out; it was too contrary to the ancient Christian faith to survive for long. Unfortunately, it was reintroduced in the early twentieth century in the new Pentecostal movement. In its new form, Modalism is often referred to as Jesus Only theology since it claims that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes, or offices of Jesus. Today the United Pentecostal Church, as well as numerous smaller groups which call themselves "apostolic churches," teach the Jesus Only doctrine.

Hope this helps....

Peace,
Scott

[Ronald]

SOGFPP,
Feel free to believe anything you wish, I find nothing in scripture that condemns beliefs about God/Creator, There are a multitude of warnings about false teachings, false witness and causing some one to sin. I can't see any value in teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. The Lord and Savior severely derided those who did so. Trinity was not SPOKEN by GOD or YESHUA/Jesus, the only place you find it is in writings/commentaries of men about the Bible. I will believe and teach it when God chooses to direct my eyes to a scripture telling me to teach a trinity doctrine.

[Scott1]

Ronald,

Feel free to believe anything you wish

Why, thank you my friend!!

Trinity was not SPOKEN by GOD or YESHUA/Jesus

Not the WORD "Trinity", but it can't be more clearly presented than by the words of Christ himself:
Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

There are a multitude of warnings about false teachings, false witness and causing some one to sin. I can't see any value in teaching as doctrine the precepts of men. The Lord and Savior severely derided those who did so.

Precepts of men???? Was Paul a man? Was Peter, James....etc...? So many Christians seem to forget that the same Holy Spirit that Simon wanted to purchase:
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
is the same Holy Spirit that wrote the Holy Bible, formed the early Christian churches, and established the doctrine of the TRINITY.

Can your pastor show a direct line from of Apostolic authority (laying of hands) for the last 2000 years?

Mine can.

Peace in Christ,
Scott

[Ronald]

I pray you Be Right!
Shalom

[dharveymi]

SOGFPP,

I am glad to hear that you do not believe in modalism. This, like the orthodox trinity doctrine, is also a heresy. I can always learn more about church history. I do not deny that the heresy of the trinity began very early, I just do not believe that it began to be widely accepted until the third century. John warned against anti-christ which was even active in his day:

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1 John 2:18

John described what these antichrist would teach:

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22

This is what the trinity heresy teaches. Jesus is not really a son, and the Father is not really his father.

Concerning your quotes, the quote from Justin Martyr does not suggest that he believed in the Trinity. I too believe that Christ holds a place next to His father; he sits on the right hand of his Father in heaven, but to say that therefor Martyr believed in the Trinity is a stretch.

If the reader would like to find out what really happened at the Council of Nicea, follow this link. It describes the effect of two heresies that arose in the early church. These heresies have become to be known as Arianism and orthodox Trinitarianism. These two camps fought for two centuries following the Council, but neither represented the majority view at that time. The majority view was summed up by Eusebius. A quote from his book follows.

http://www.presenttruth.info/books/F.../Form_Trin.htm

ÒFor as no one hath known the Father, but the Son, so no one on the other hand, can know the Son fully, but the Father alone, by whom He was begotten. For who but the Father hath thoroughly understood that Light which existed before the world was-that intellectual and substantial wisdom, and that living Word which in the beginning was with the Father, before all creation and any production visible or invisible, the first and only offspring of God, the prince and leader of the spiritual and immortal host of heaven, the angel of the mighty council, the agent to execute the FatherÕs secret will, the maker of all things with the Father, the second cause of the universe next to the Father, the true and only Son of the Father, and the Lord and God and King of all created things, who has received power, and dominion with divinity itself, and power and honour from the FatherÉ Where he introduces the Father and maker as the Ruler of all, commanding with His sovereign nod, but the divine word as next to Him, the very same that is proclaimed to us, as ministering to His FatherÕs commandsÉ The Son Himself, however, by no means indifferent to the worship of the Father, is appointed to teach the knowledge of the Father to allÉ Of Him, Moses obviously speaks as the second after the Father,É intrusted with the second rank of sovereignty and rule over all, Ôthe captain of the LordÕs host,ÉÕÓ (EusebiusÕ Ecclesiastical History, pages 15-17)

Eusebius expressed the view of most Christians at that time that Jesus was the only born Son of God, and not the only true God, not the only immortal God, not the one and only Potentate, not the supreme ruler of the universe. These early Christians (actually none of the camps) believed that the Holy Spirit was a third person as we think of one today, but instead was the Spirit of God, in much the same way that man has a spirit within him, the thing that knows a man's thought, and not a third seperate being.

P.S. Concerning the instruction for baptism, the apostles who heard what Jesus said, never followed the instruction as we believe it today. These holy men baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Chirst, seemingly ignoring the rest of the instruction. They understood that Jesus was not promoting a new doctrine, the Trinity, Jesus was talking about the character that must be displayed in the one baptized and the effect that would be apparent in the changed life. In the name of Jesus, the old man is buried. In the name of the Father, the a new man is raised to newness of life, and when hands are layed on the new man, the Holy Spirit of God fills the new life, that he may live the life of Christ, who will not leave us alone but will come onto us.