Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Religious Topics / Religious Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-20-2008, 05:24 PM
Popeyesays's Avatar
Popeyesays Offline
Religion: Baha`i
Title:Lofty Member
Shield of Peace: Awarded for exceptional effort in upholding and promoting the peace - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers and is well deserved. Shield of The Ambassador: Awarded for being a true herald of a belief system - Issue reason: Award designated for members who show great knowledge of their religion. 
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oklahoma C
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,768
Frubals: 497
Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'
Default Truth is to Reality as Relative is to Absoute? Is there an absolute reality anyway?



There have been several basic Aristotelian Truths to which man has always applied theology and philosophy:
  1. That what we observe and experience in the outer world has some reality and existence independent of our observing and experiencing it,
  2. That time is a universal phenomenon; i.e., that the passing of time is the same for all people under all circumstances,
  3. That space is a universally uniform phenomenon,
  4. That, although matter can be broken down and built up, in any process matter is conserved (i.e., the sum total of mass at the beginning equals the sum total at the end). This is usually associated with a concept of an indestructible, irreducible, prime matter from which all else is built up,
  5. That if proposition A is the opposite of proposition B, and one of these is shown to be true, then the other must necessarily be false.
These are considered a Newtonian view of the universe even though Newton formulated many of them, nonetheless theywere expresswed b efore Newton refined them.

These precepts are at the base of most Judaeo-Christian-Muslim theology.

But they need to be reconsidered in light of new discoveries about the nature of Creation:
  1. We can make no absolute statements about phenomena. The phenomena that we are observing are in fact affected by our observing them. Therefore, our observations are not objective and independent but relative. In other words, we cannot know anything in absolute terms. This is because our methods of measuring relate to only one of these factors, leaving the other uncertain. In general then, any statements that we make are purely relative to our method of observing and measuring this world.
  2. Time is not universal, its rate of passing is relative to the observer.
  3. Space is not uniform but is in fact curved by mass. Indeed, space-time is one interconnected entity.
  4. Mass is not in fact conserved in subatomic reactions; it can be created and disappear with gains and losses of appropriate amounts of energy.
  5. Both mass and electromagnetic wave energy were considered, to be two fundamentally different phenomena. If X is a body with a mass, tradition excluded the possibility that it could be an electromagnetic wave. Now, however, subatomic particles can be considered as both electromagnetic waves and as particles with mass--something that it is not even possible to conceive of intellectually, since our concepts are naturally based on our every-day experiences. The idea of something being simultaneously both a physical body and an electromagnetic wave is outside of our every-day experience.

    Causality itself, a a fundamental plank of the Newtonian world-view becomes meaningless. At this level, we can no longer speak of individual events and their causes. All we can do is to measure groups of events and assign probabilities to them. Thus we find the Law of Causality being replaced by the Law of Probability.
This presents a new paradigm to theology as well as science, and the more we ignore it the more distortion we apply to out understanding of God, Revelation and the Universe.

"So perfect and comprehensive is His creation that no mind or heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of His creatures; much less fathom the mystery of Him Who is the Day Star of Truth, Who is the invisible and unknowable Essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics,, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man ~ finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations". Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, No. XXVI, p. 48/62/62 (italics added).



With respect to Mooj Momen for kicking off this line of thought.


Regards,

Scott
__________________
Author, Sword of the Dajjal, e-book, from http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages...rd_dajjal.html
http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached
Jars of Doom Jan., 2008 Champagne Books
I Blog!: http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Popeyesays; 07-20-2008 at 05:37 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:03 PM
oldcajun's Avatar
oldcajun Offline
Title:__BE REAL
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 202
Frubals: 25
oldcajun is the leader of a covert group of mutant frubals
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by popeyesays View Post


There have been several basic aristotelian truths to which man has always applied theology and philosophy:
  1. that what we observe and experience in the outer world has some reality and existence independent of our observing and experiencing it,
  2. that time is a universal phenomenon; i.e., that the passing of time is the same for all people under all circumstances,
  3. that space is a universally uniform phenomenon,
  4. that, although matter can be broken down and built up, in any process matter is conserved (i.e., the sum total of mass at the beginning equals the sum total at the end). This is usually associated with a concept of an indestructible, irreducible, prime matter from which all else is built up,
  5. that if proposition a is the opposite of proposition b, and one of these is shown to be true, then the other must necessarily be false.
these are considered a newtonian view of the universe even though newton formulated many of them, nonetheless theywere expresswed b efore newton refined them.

These precepts are at the base of most judaeo-christian-muslim theology.

But they need to be reconsidered in light of new discoveries about the nature of creation:
  1. we can make no absolute statements about phenomena. The phenomena that we are observing are in fact affected by our observing them. Therefore, our observations are not objective and independent but relative. In other words, we cannot know anything in absolute terms. This is because our methods of measuring relate to only one of these factors, leaving the other uncertain. in general then, any statements that we make are purely relative to our method of observing and measuring this world.
  2. time is not universal, its rate of passing is relative to the observer.
  3. space is not uniform but is in fact curved by mass. Indeed, space-time is one interconnected entity.
  4. mass is not in fact conserved in subatomic reactions; it can be created and disappear with gains and losses of appropriate amounts of energy.
  5. both mass and electromagnetic wave energy were considered, to be two fundamentally different phenomena. If x is a body with a mass, tradition excluded the possibility that it could be an electromagnetic wave. Now, however, subatomic particles can be considered as both electromagnetic waves and as particles with mass--something that it is not even possible to conceive of intellectually, since our concepts are naturally based on our every-day experiences. The idea of something being simultaneously both a physical body and an electromagnetic wave is outside of our every-day experience.

    Causality itself, a a fundamental plank of the newtonian world-view becomes meaningless. At this level, we can no longer speak of individual events and their causes. All we can do is to measure groups of events and assign probabilities to them. Thus we find the law of causality being replaced by the law of probability.
this presents a new paradigm to theology as well as science, and the more we ignore it the more distortion we apply to out understanding of god, revelation and the universe.

"so perfect and comprehensive is his creation that no mind or heart, however keen or pure, can ever grasp the nature of the most insignificant of his creatures; much less fathom the mystery of him who is the day star of truth, who is the invisible and unknowable essence. The conceptions of the devoutest of mystics,, the attainments of the most accomplished amongst men, the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man ~ finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations". bahá'u'lláh, gleanings, no. Xxvi, p. 48/62/62 (italics added).



with respect to mooj momen for kicking off this line of thought.


regards,

scott
YOUR POST------------------------ZING----------------------------------------------->

??----------------------------------MY HEAD----------------------------------------??
__________________
"The thing formed says that nothing formed it; and that which is made is, while that which made it is not! The folly is infinite."...Jeremy Taylor
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:06 PM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Offline
Religion: Judaism
Title:Extraordinary Member
Shield of Knowledge: Awarded for outstanding demonstration of high knowledge in a particular field - Issue reason:  Shield of Research: Awarded for meticulous attention to detail and comprehensive reading around a subject - Issue reason: For thorough research in regards to different topics through the years. Shield of the Veteran: For continued service and valued contribution over the years - Issue reason: For your valuable contributions to the forum over the years. Shield of 20,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 20,000 posts - Issue reason: For over 20,000 posts. Congrats Jay.  :) 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,505
Frubals: 3440
Jayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribes
Jayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribesJayhawker Soule loves hearing the ancient myths where an angry deity sent a plague of frubals to terrorize misbehaving tribes
Default

What does "absolute reality" mean?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-20-2008, 07:20 PM
Popeyesays's Avatar
Popeyesays Offline
Religion: Baha`i
Title:Lofty Member
Shield of Peace: Awarded for exceptional effort in upholding and promoting the peace - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers and is well deserved. Shield of The Ambassador: Awarded for being a true herald of a belief system - Issue reason: Award designated for members who show great knowledge of their religion. 
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oklahoma C
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,768
Frubals: 497
Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'Popeyesays wants to start a magazine called 'Fruballing Today'
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule View Post
What does "absolute reality" mean?
I'm supposed to know?

Regards,
Scott
__________________
Author, Sword of the Dajjal, e-book, from http://www.booksforabuck.com/sfpages...rd_dajjal.html
http://www.fictionwise.com/eBooks/eBook47261.htm?cached
Jars of Doom Jan., 2008 Champagne Books
I Blog!: http://cscottsaylorsbooks.blogspot.com/
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-23-2008, 04:38 AM
tariqkhwaja Offline
Religion: Islam
Title:Jihad Against Terrorism
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,130
Frubals: 77
tariqkhwaja likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling offtariqkhwaja likes the look on kids' faces when you tell them their frubals are falling off
Default

In fact, the book of Hazrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad, the fourth calif of the Ahmadiya Muslim Community, was about Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth. Discussing your question, he stated:

Quote:
The issues we are about to discuss are concerning the instruments which may lead to knowledge and the manner in which any knowledge could be ascertained as truth. If all human vantage points are actually placed on a moving platform, with constant change in the angle of vision, how can any knowledge or piece of information we obtain be declared, with any certainty, to be the truth? There is one vantage point, that of God the Creator, which is eternal and constant. Hence, if the existence of an Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent God is proved and if He is Eternal, Infallible, Transcendent, All-Powerful and Possessor of absolute attributes— then and only then could the possibility of gaining knowledge of eternal truth through Him arise. But this hypothesis is only conditional on the premise that not only does such a Supreme Being exist, but that He also communicates with humans. It is this communication of God with humans which is called revelation in religious terminology.
To discuss issues of such great import, purely on a secular and rational basis is not an easy task. Add to this the question of revelation as having played any significant role in human guidance, and the task will become all the more challenging. Yet this is the task we have undertaken, with the full realization of all the complexities involved.
So I guess what he was effectively saying was read the rest of the book to see how he proves the above point taken from Introduction with a Historical Perspective. Very interesting read with something for everyone on these forums. Just have a look at the table of contents and you will surely find at least one topic that intrigues you to read it Al Islam -Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth.
__________________
If you like what you read please take this poll. Thank you. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...islam-dir.html
"Love for All; Hatred for None" - Official motto of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:19 PM.


Copyright © 2014 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.