Anti-Existence Proof

Hammbone · #1 07-14-2008, 10:54 AM

The proof starts with discussing what God is made of. God must have some physical intendance on the universe. For example the creation of man, the carrying of christ to heaven, the existence of a place to go after death, ext. There must be a way that God physically touches the universe, and that is within meassurement of science.
If God is or ever was effecting the universe as we precieve it then we should be able to messure in some way that influence. We should be able to meassure some for of communication coming from or going to people who are praying.

Assuming God does exist, I guess the entity could cheat the rules that it created. So let us go with the assumption that this is the case. We often hear, 'God is a spirit' or God is beyond understanding or God doesn't exist in this plane.

Well if God does not exist in a sense of which we can understand than by what defination is God real? How can something be real if it doesn't exist in anyway that we can physically effect or comprehend? What is the difference between a God that you can not see, hear, touch or meassure and no God at all?

1) What is a spirit? Has any form needed to be explained by the conception of a spirit? There is no evidence at all that such a thing even exists. Some people mean it in the form an idea. Well if God is an idea that doesn't physically effect anything, what in the world does it explain?

2) That's great that God is beyond understanding but his effects on us can not lie outside of our physical existence. Even if you are inspired by a thought, your brain cells have to fire differently. And that should be messurable, right?

3) God exists someplace else and pops in when he needed to and then goes away. Well fine, but if God is coming into our existence and changing anything we can still messure it.

There is no way to get around it. If anything happens whatsoever, by "God's Hand" than that effect should be able to be traced back in some way to God. But simple logic and the conservation of energy every movement has a prior mover. Even if God somehow created it's own Energy, THEN than new energy should be messurable as well.

How can this be explained? I'll reply to any takers.

Halcyon · #2 07-14-2008, 11:10 AM

Imagine for a moment that you are a video game character, or that the Matrix is real. You're wandering along when suddenly, from nowhere and without apparent cause a dog materialises from thin air in front of you and runs off.

You wouldn't be able to explain the event by logical or rational means, it appears that nothing caused the dog to ping into existence. This is because the cause of the dog is a game programmer that exists outside of your universe, of your reality, and also exists according by physical laws unrelated to your own, and is in no way bound by the physical laws of your world.
The programmer can do whatever he or she likes to your universe, and they can do it with or without your knowledge.

Just as a game character can't prove or disprove the existence of the programmer from the confines of his virtual world, a person cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.

Cacafire · #3 07-14-2008, 11:15 AM

HamBone, you're wasting your time. The obvious christian response is that God is beyond science...science must remain silent on god... blah blah, we have to have faith...ect.

Christians don't want proof. They want to believe in their religion. That's why before the 1700's all christian theologians accepted scientific arguments for the existence of god. When science clearly diverged, however, and was showing things that went against dogma, science had to go.

If you read Rosseau, who invented the tactic of believing in god from Awe and Wonder, you'd realize that it's exactly the same as the awe and wonder that a scientist feels for the universe. Indubitably, however, the scientist understands how to manipulate it. The christian just feels the need to pray in the face of such awesome forces like nature.

Like I said... the first christian argument is going to say that science can't talk aboug god... blah blah blah...

phh. Like I care.

Cacafire · #4 07-14-2008, 11:21 AM

Halcyon, in hambone's defense, a video game character does not have a will independent of the programmer. But in the sense that a video game character could have an independent will, discovering the programmer's presence would be a simple thing. He or she would simply need to trace the data of the dog back to the input streams that are connected to the hardware, and from there could discover all the laws of our universe.

Your mistake was to assume that the dog would materialize out of thin air, such as you see in the movies. But the movies are not the proper way to argue from. Data exists in hard form, semi-hard form, and active form. When the data of the character is in active form(e.g. "in the processor"), he would not see the dog materialize out of thin air, but access the dog's data through the input stream that leads to the RAM. From here, it is simple electrophysics to interact with the real world.

Please think before you open your mouth.

Jayhawker Soule · #5 07-14-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammbone

The proof starts with discussing what God is made of. God must have some physical intendance on the universe. For example the creation of man, the carrying of christ to heaven, the existence of a place to go after death, ext. There must be a way that God physically touches the universe, and that is within meassurement of science.

Nonsense.

Hammbone · #6 07-14-2008, 12:01 PM

Cacafire, you and I are on the same page. I did write a portion on even if God is beyond science how he still would be detectable within the system. So I think we disagree on that. I do agree with you on Rosseau, but I prefer the Carl Sagn verison better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacafire

HamBone, you're wasting your time. The obvious christian response is that God is beyond science...science must remain silent on god... blah blah, we have to have faith...ect.

Christians don't want proof. They want to believe in their religion. That's why before the 1700's all christian theologians accepted scientific arguments for the existence of god. When science clearly diverged, however, and was showing things that went against dogma, science had to go.

If you read Rosseau, who invented the tactic of believing in god from Awe and Wonder, you'd realize that it's exactly the same as the awe and wonder that a scientist feels for the universe. Indubitably, however, the scientist understands how to manipulate it. The christian just feels the need to pray in the face of such awesome forces like nature.

Like I said... the first christian argument is going to say that science can't talk aboug god... blah blah blah...

phh. Like I care.

Hammbone · #7 07-14-2008, 12:02 PM

I believe the idea of that happening is complete nonsense. But if one believes in a God than that statement MUST be true. There is no getting around it.

If you have another way around please share.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

Nonsense.

Mestemia · #8 07-14-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammbone

There must be a way that God physically touches the universe, and that is within meassurement of science.

prove it.
Or present enough evidence to show it is, at the very least, a probability.

Hammbone · #9 07-14-2008, 12:22 PM

Here is the problem with the Matrix arguement. No matter what, you still have something coming from nowhere. And that is still measurable. There is no way of getting something for free like that, but if a Dog did materialize, then that is certainly within the range of science. I'll agree that the cause may be out of reach, but the effect is not. It is the effect that made us believe it in the first place. Why can't we meassure the effect? Couldn't we meassure the healing power of prayer?

Also the programmer has the same problem of the infinite regress. You can keep stacking layers of complexity on everything, but it does not make it probable or possible. What created the universe? The Big Bang. What created the Big Bang? Compressed Matter. What created the compressed matter?

If you say God, what created God? Well, God was always there. Fine, but all you have done is added a step. You could have just said matter was always there.

What in the world would make you think that is the way it would work? The bible does not suggest this method of God's intence at all. No one ever did before science starting taking off. Even the highly questionable bible does not back this claim in anyway, it is literally pulled out of nowhere because it helps your argument.

But afterall, why does there need to be superintendance? What reason other than justifying what you believe, is there to think that is true?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Imagine for a moment that you are a video game character, or that the Matrix is real. You're wandering along when suddenly, from nowhere and without apparent cause a dog materialises from thin air in front of you and runs off.

You wouldn't be able to explain the event by logical or rational means, it appears that nothing caused the dog to ping into existence. This is because the cause of the dog is a game programmer that exists outside of your universe, of your reality, and also exists according by physical laws unrelated to your own, and is in no way bound by the physical laws of your world.
The programmer can do whatever he or she likes to your universe, and they can do it with or without your knowledge.

Just as a game character can't prove or disprove the existence of the programmer from the confines of his virtual world, a person cannot prove or disprove the existence of God.