Youtube Testimony

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

It means exactly what I posted. I'm sorry you don't understand. You probably haven't encountered a Mormon like me before - one who believes there are many paths to the top of the mountain, so to say. Ultimately, all will confess that Jesus is the Christ and they will have either followed Him, accepting his Great Sacrifice or not.

Well sure, Mormonism teaches something very close to universalism, so point taken, I suppose. But if that's the case, why be so earnest (as most Mormons are) about these testimonies? Why are potential converts urged to read and pray and wait for "confirmation"? Why are they not urged to investigate the historical claims being made? Why isn't the publicly available evidence not offered as part of the confirmation?

Besides, why is God so concerned about restoring the church if, in the end, it doesn't matter what one believes or how one behaves? So what if the church apostasizes? Why go about the project of restoration, then?

[Watchmen]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Well sure, Mormonism teaches something very close to universalism, so point taken, I suppose. But if that's the case, why be so earnest (as most Mormons are) about these testimonies? Why are potential converts urged to read and pray and wait for "confirmation"? Why are they not urged to investigate the historical claims being made? Why isn't the publicly available evidence not offered as part of the confirmation?

You're not going to get an argument from me. I do think people should do their research.

Ultimately, however, the confirmation comes from the Spirit of the Father. The New Testament teaches as much.

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Besides, why is God so concerned about restoring the church if, in the end, it doesn't matter what one believes or how one behaves? So what if the church apostasizes? Why go about the project of restoration, then?

Because whatever path a person takes to get to the top, once there, they will either reject Christ or accept him. If they accept him then they will receive his ordinances. Currently, those are only found in the LDS Church.

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Scientologists might also gain strong personal convictions based on prayer, obedience and personal revelation. So might a Baptist. ...Christianity appeals to history, to history it shall go.

You underestimate revelation in the LDS church. There is far more than a "burning in the bosom" going on in the revelatory process.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Isn't it possible that the truth being confirmed is just you confirming something that you already believe, or want to believe?

In your opinion, why would some people who read the BoM feel that it's falseness is being confirmed to them?

For me it isn't just a one-time confirmation. It's been years of testing it. I have no idea what a "burning" feels like. But years of following the guidelines of the gospel as taught in the LDS church has worked. I see the fruits in my life, in my family, and in the lives of many others. I've tested the promises, and they come through. There are no grand manifestations, nor angels, nor obvious miracles. Just day by day living the principles, and seeing the fruits. It's something you can't describe for another's understanding. You just have to experience it.

It's similar to being in love. Hard to describe, but you know it when you have it.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

Ultimately, however, the confirmation comes from the Spirit of the Father. The New Testament teaches as much.

Actually, that's not exactly the NT position. The NT says that the Spirit plays a role, even a decisive role. But if the events portrayed in the NT didn't happen, the religion is worthless. As Paul said, if Jesus wasn't raised, our faith is in vain. So the events are important. And throughout its history, the church has called upon potential converts to investigate the history. Indeed, the history has always been a primary source of the Christian proclamation. It has never been reduced to personal revelation.

[Watchmen]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Actually, that's not exactly the NT position. The NT says that the Spirit plays a role, even a decisive role. But if the events portrayed in the NT didn't happen, the religion is worthless. As Paul said, if Jesus wasn't raised, our faith is in vain. So the events are important. And throughout its history, the church has called upon potential converts to investigate the history. Indeed, the history has always been a primary source of the Christian proclamation. It has never been reduced to personal revelation.

And the history will reveal the apostacy.

As for what the NT teaches, how did Peter know Jesus was the Christ? Chapter and verse if you can please.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

And the history will reveal the apostacy.

As for what the NT teaches, how did Peter know Jesus was the Christ? Chapter and verse if you can please.

I have NEVER denied that revelation plays a role. I have denied that we cannot rely upon it alone. God certainly helped Peter to believe, but why did Peter believe on Jesus of Nazareth but not on the 20-odd other Messianic pretenders we know something about 100 years either side of Jesus? Might it be that they hadn't performed the miracles (i.e., didn't have the history) that Jesus did? In other words, Peter was able to see that Jesus was the Christ by God's help. Yet it was also the fact that Jesus did what he did that made that conclusion even possible for Peter.

Therefore, as I've said before in this thread, personal revelation is important. But you can't get around the fact that personal revelations lead in many different directions. So if you want to establish whether a group is authentically hearing from God, you need to subject that group to a public sort of test. In Christianity's case, we appeal to the resurrection of Jesus and other aspects of Christian history. The LDS church ought to do the same. In the case of Christianity, the truth of the public event of the resurrection authenticates (or not) its truth. In the case of the LDS church, the public truth of the events portrayed in the BoM does the same.

Tell me, what if it were true that archaeology proved that the events of the BoM didn't happen? Would you abandon your faith? Or would your personal revelation suffice to keep you within the fold?

[Darkwater]

The *Jacob's Ladder* experience was by far the most uplifting,using your spheres to climb out of the Abyss once you identify & love all that is you,and all that is not you.

In love

DW