Youtube Testimony

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

"burning bosoms" are overrated.

The spirit confirms truth, just as it revealed to PETER that Jesus is the CHRIST. It comes as a touch to the mind and the individual now knows something he or she previously did not.

Isn't it possible that the truth being confirmed is just you confirming something that you already believe, or want to believe?

In your opinion, why would some people who read the BoM feel that it's falseness is being confirmed to them?

[Watchmen]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Isn't it possible that the truth being confirmed is just you confirming something that you already believe, or want to believe?

In your opinion, why would some people who read the BoM feel that it's falseness is being confirmed to them?

I believe everyone must find the path that works for them. Just as you follow Buddhism because it's best for you, I follow the LDS path. If people feel the BoM is false, than obviously they shouldn't take that path.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

I believe everyone must find the path that works for them. Just as you follow Buddhism because it's best for you, I follow the LDS path. If people feel the BoM is false, than obviously they shouldn't take that path.

I agree with that completely.

But, just to humour me, why would a person not receive confirmation by praying on the book, or even confirmation of its falsehood, in your personal opinion?

[Watchmen]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I agree with that completely.

But, just to humour me, why would a person not receive confirmation by praying on the book, or even confirmation of its falsehood, in your personal opinion?

Perhaps it's due to one of the following:

1. Mormonism is not for them (and God knows it)

2. They aren't ready for the commitments that will come with the knowledge

3. They aren't sincere in reading and praying about it

4. They do get confirmation, but deny it for any number of reasons

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

Perhaps it's due to one of the following:

1. Mormonism is not for them (and God knows it)

2. They aren't ready for the commitments that will come with the knowledge

3. They aren't sincere in reading and praying about it

4. They do get confirmation, but deny it for any number of reasons

Thank you.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

I believe everyone must find the path that works for them. Just as you follow Buddhism because it's best for you, I follow the LDS path. If people feel the BoM is false, than obviously they shouldn't take that path.

That's not the point. The point is that Mormons use extraordinarily subjective methods to verify the truth of the Mormon way as well as the BoM. These subjective methods can (and do) verify contrary claims. For instance, it may confirm for you that the BoM is divine. It confirms to me that it's a satanic deception. Where do we go from here? Does your testimony falsify mine? Why? Or vice versa? Again, why? Our testimonies can't both be true (although they both may be false).

The key problem (for me at least) is that by relying on such subjective standards for vindicating LDS claims, believers need not worry about niggling things such as evidence. What if it turns out that there's exactly zero evidence for the ancient civilizations portrayed in the BoM? No matter, I've had my burning bosom, so the absence of evidence need not concern me. What if it turns out that all the evidence points to Joseph Smith being a world-class charlatan? No matter, I've had my burning bosom, so however compelling that evidence is, it must be false, fabricated, or whatever. Now, I'm not saying that there's no evidence for those civilizations, and I'm not saying that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. All I'm saying is that the LDS uses the burning bosom as a way of bypassing a person's rational faculties. No critical thinking is required. As long as you've had that burning in the bosom, you know that the BoM is true, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

[Dunemeister]

The question was why a person might not receive confirmation by praying on the BoM, or even receive confirmation of its falsehood.

Originally Posted by DisneyMan

Perhaps it's due to one of the following:

1. Mormonism is not for them (and God knows it)

So, the BoM is from God, the LDS church is the actually restored people of God, and yet Mormonism isn't "for" a person? Whatever does that mean?

Worse, take the case that someone receives confirmation that it's falsehood. Now you've got a situation in which the BoM is from God, the LDS church is the actually restored people of God, yet God himself tells the seeker that the BoM is deceptive? Just how far do you wish to stretch credulity?

2. They aren't ready for the commitments that will come with the knowledge

It's certainly possible to refuse to acknowledge the truth of something when doing so entails a way of life that is, at the moment, considered unpleasant. That's the sort of thing that kept me from acknowledging Christ's lordship for quite a while.

3. They aren't sincere in reading and praying about it.

That's also possible. My fear, though, is that if a person comes away with a negative feeling from the BoM, believers are apt to automatically blame it on moral timidity or insincerity. This again, is a problem with using such a highly subjective standard.

4. They do get confirmation, but deny it for any number of reasons

Again, that's possible, but it would probably come down to #2 or #3, wouldn't it? So the bottom line is that we've got only two real possibilities. First, for some reason, although Mormonism is the truth, it's not "for" someone, so God either doesn't confirm its truth or, even more strangely, affirms its falseness to a person. Please forgive me if I find this a trifle odd. Second, the problem is some moral problem with the reader -- moral cowardice or insincerity.

That's well and good as far as it goes, but you'll notice that this whole process actually bypasses what we all consider to be necessary elements in the search for truth. Allowing for a minute that God is a necessary element in that search, there's also the little matter of investigation, which involves examining the public evidence. Surely if the historical claims made in the BoM are true, we ought to expect some trace of them in archeology and history. Why not make that a necessary part of the search, too?

[Watchmen]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

That's not the point. The point is that Mormons use extraordinarily subjective methods to verify the truth of the Mormon way as well as the BoM. These subjective methods can (and do) verify contrary claims. For instance, it may confirm for you that the BoM is divine. It confirms to me that it's a satanic deception. Where do we go from here? Does your testimony falsify mine? Why? Or vice versa? Again, why? Our testimonies can't both be true (although they both may be false).

The key problem (for me at least) is that by relying on such subjective standards for vindicating LDS claims, believers need not worry about niggling things such as evidence. What if it turns out that there's exactly zero evidence for the ancient civilizations portrayed in the BoM? No matter, I've had my burning bosom, so the absence of evidence need not concern me. What if it turns out that all the evidence points to Joseph Smith being a world-class charlatan? No matter, I've had my burning bosom, so however compelling that evidence is, it must be false, fabricated, or whatever. Now, I'm not saying that there's no evidence for those civilizations, and I'm not saying that Joseph Smith was a charlatan. All I'm saying is that the LDS uses the burning bosom as a way of bypassing a person's rational faculties. No critical thinking is required. As long as you've had that burning in the bosom, you know that the BoM is true, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

I posted that people follow the path that works best for them. I didn't say how each person gets to that path. It's different for everyone. Some use subjective methods some use objective methods. So use rational faculties and some just emote.

I think you'd be surprised to learn the number of LDS members that are members precisely because of their critical thinking. As a whole, LDS are more educated than the general population. To get to spiritual enlightment requires critical thinking.