Immorality in the Book of Mormon

[spiritually inclined]

Without going into a great deal of detail, I'm afraid I can't give you a really good answer. Briefly, though, we believe that anyone who wants to be forgiven will be forgiven. The only people who won't be saved will be those who have a perfect knowledge and understanding of who God is and who nevertheless knowingly choose to spend eternity apart from him. I couldn't possibly tell you the percentage of people who will be in this category, but it's almost infintisimally small. Maybe it would make a little bit clearer to you to know that we believe that there are many who won't repent until thousands of years after they have died (and yes, we do believe it's possible to repent after death). Even those who never repent will end up in Heaven, although they will not have the benefit of having had Jesus Christ pay for their sins for them. They will have to pay for them themselves, but will ultimately be forgiven and allowed into Heaven. I'm including in this group people such as Hitler, binLaden, and some of the vilest individuals to have ever walked the earth.

That is interesting. Even with the issues I take with Mormonism, at least your view of God in particular is much kinder than the average Christian, fundamentalist, or evangelical.

I have universalist tendencies myself.

James

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

That is interesting. Even with the issues I take with Mormonism, at least your view of God in particular is much kinder than the average Christian, fundamentalist, or evangelical.

I have universalist tendencies myself.

James

Well, we're about as universalist as you can be without forcing someone to be with God. Heaven is open to anyone who doesn't, in essence, refuse to enter.

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

If there are supernatural sources for the Book of Mormon -- and for the purpose of this thread I assume that -- I cannot believe that these sources are good.

As I've said before, to properly make such an evaluation of the Book of Mormon, it might be better to use scriptures that are exclusive to the book.

The most troubling part of this passage to me is that God will stir up people who will have no pity on "the fruit of the womb" or children. Why could God not spare the innocent children?

There are actually several answers to this. First, we have to distinguish between God and the people He stirs up as weapons against the unrighteous. Elsewhere in Isaiah and the Book of Mormon, God reminds the reader that the nations used in this manner are still wicked, and will be punished for their wickedness.

Second, God receives these innocent children unto Himself when they are the victims of war. Thus, He is actually extending mercy to the murdered children even as wicked nations do as they do.

The purpose of these verses is to point out that the Lord will not stand in the way of wicked nations when His people turn from Him, and that such nations will be cruel and horrible when turned loose.

2 Nephi 6

6:15 And they that believe not in him shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.

I find this troubling, too. Why should someone be punished this way for not believing in Christ? Are such people so wicked that they deserve such punishment? I happen to know some great people who do not believe in Christ, and I don't see how this merits punishment.

Okay, this is an easy jump to make, but it's still a jump: this verse is talking about consequences, not punishment. People are not punished for non-belief, but their non-belief will cause them to ignore the Lord's advice on how to be happy. I might say to someone, "You'll do what you want, but when [insert consequence] happens, you'll know I was right."

2 Nephi
28:23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

This might be better understood in the light of D&C 6, which states that the "endless" here in an allusion to the nature of God, rather than a literal not having an end.
Doctrine and Covenants 19

Moreover, we find elsewhere in the Book of Mormon that the proverbial flames of hell are caused by the guilt we feel in the presence of God. God has provided a remedy for this, but those who refuse the remedy must suffer the consequences.

[Starfish]

According to the OP, it seems the rejection of the God of the BoM, is a rejection of the God of the Bible.
Isaiah's words are difficult to understand even for the most learned Biblical scholar. One has to have the help of the Holy Ghost to really get what he's saying. He wrote this way so that only the inspired would understand him and the rest would have to wait. I have taught from the Book of Isaiah, and to do so, I have to lean heavily upon those who are more spiritually advanced than I. When the rest of us are more spiritually prepared (meaning prepared to receive what we will learn) and have put in the time and effort to study, pray and ponder over Isaiah's words, we will understand them. The Lord, through the power of the Holy Ghost, will reveal his meaning to us.
Till then, we trust in God. We keep studying his scriptures. We keep praying. We keep seeking to be closer to Christ and follow his commandments. Little by little, the understanding will come and it will make sense. I know this because I have experienced it, bit by bit.

I know that God is good. I know that he loves us. He does everything for our benefit. On the surface, the Bible makes him appear scary and heartless. But when you get to know him personally, through prayer, study of his words, and living obediently his commandments, he is anything but cruel. He is our father and we are his valued children. Consider this, also from 2 Nephi of the BoM:
"But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love." (1:15)

[spiritually inclined]

There are actually several answers to this. First, we have to distinguish between God and the people He stirs up as weapons against the unrighteous. Elsewhere in Isaiah and the Book of Mormon, God reminds the reader that the nations used in this manner are still wicked, and will be punished for their wickedness.

He is still stirring them up to kill people.

Second, God receives these innocent children unto Himself when they are the victims of war. Thus, He is actually extending mercy to the murdered children even as wicked nations do as they do.

If a radical Muslim came to take your children and murder them, would you think the god of that Muslim was very merciful? How could you expect pagans to believe that your god is merciful when he would have people kill infants and others?

The purpose of these verses is to point out that the Lord will not stand in the way of wicked nations when His people turn from Him, and that such nations will be cruel and horrible when turned loose.

That doesn't make your god sound anymore loving.

James

[spiritually inclined]

According to the OP, it seems the rejection of the God of the BoM, is a rejection of the God of the Bible.

I actually don't believe in any personal gods.

I know that God is good. I know that he loves us. He does everything for our benefit. On the surface, the Bible makes him appear scary and heartless. But when you get to know him personally, through prayer, study of his words, and living obediently his commandments, he is anything but cruel. He is our father and we are his valued children. Consider this, also from 2 Nephi of the BoM:
"But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love." (1:15)

I do not doubt that your spiritual experience has nurtured you and made you feel loved personally by God. I don't doubt that at all. What I am pointing out is that your belief and trust in a loving god does not precisely reflect your own scriptures. It reflects the scriptures that speak positively of God. It does not reflect the scriptures that make God into a murderer.

James

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

I actually don't believe in any personal gods.


I do not doubt that your spiritual experience has nurtured you and made you feel loved personally by God. I don't doubt that at all. What I am pointing out is that your belief and trust in a loving god does not precisely reflect your own scriptures. It reflects the scriptures that speak positively of God. It does not reflect the scriptures that make God into a murderer.

James

Our vision is so limited. We see only a small slice of our entire existance, and temper that small slice with our limited understanding. God sees it all. He sees the beginning to the end, and beyond that. A second grader cannot possibly understand college algebra. We cannot possibly understand everything that God knows. This is why we must have faith. We are here to develope faith, which is to trust God. This is why we need to really get to know him. We cannot do that with a limited exposure to the scriptures. it takes more. But the rewards are huge.

I understand your feelings about trusting a murderer. But I don't see him that way, and I read the same words you do in the Bible and BoM. He is the one being who has the right to give us life and to take it away. He created us. Christ "purchased" us with the atonement. If our actions here on earth are taking us in a direction that will ultimately harm us more than death, he has the wisdom, and right, to intervene.

Physical death is not a curse. Here is our limited vision--we can't see beyond it. We cannot talk to someone who has experienced it. Those who claim to have had near-death experiences typically say they no longer fear it. Death CAN be a tremendous blessing.

God knows it all. We know very little.

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

He is still stirring them up to kill people.

And that's where I believe it's an exaggeration: God isn't stirring them up as much as he's withdrawing His protection. It's really cause and effect: as people embrace God, He protects them. As they reject Him, He withdraws, and His protection goes with Him. Whatever happens after He withdraws is not His fault, because they basically told Him to leave.

If a radical Muslim came to take your children and murder them, would you think the god of that Muslim was very merciful? How could you expect pagans to believe that your god is merciful when he would have people kill infants and others?

I don't make judgements about God based upon the actions of people, period. To judge Allah by a radical Muslim is silly.

That doesn't make your god sound anymore loving.

Probably because these verses are not about love. They are about the consequences of rejecting God. God's love doesn't mean He can help people who refuse His help.