Immorality in the Book of Mormon

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

But now that I have been exposed to more Mormon beliefs and doctrine online, I am interested in how Mormons react to the more troubling parts of their own scriptures. Do you believe these scriptures are literally true? Do you think the Book of Mormon could have been flawed in condoning infanticide? Or do you actually believe it?

Most Mormons I know are not Bible literalists. I know I'm not. These passages, as I said, are quoted from Isaiah. Isaiah is so difficult for me to understand that, as a rule, I kind of gloss over it. But since you've raised the question, I'd have to say that Isaiah appears to me to be highly symbolic. I don't for a minute believe that God condones infanticide.

[DeepShadow]

The short answer is that the Book of Mormon admits it can contain the errors of men. Thus, we do not see it as infallible nor inerrant.

That being said, in order to really examine the "immorality" of the Book of Mormon, we ought to look at passages that are exclusive to the Book. This is not to say the same God is not responsible for the Isaiah passages, but merely that more focus is warranted by the thread title and OP.

[spiritually inclined]

The scriptures may be based on Isaiah or even taken from Isaiah, but they are still in the Book of Mormon. Do you interpret them as metaphor? What is your interpretation?

The short answer is that the Book of Mormon admits it can contain the errors of men. Thus, we do not see it as infallible nor inerrant.

How do you know which parts are truth and which parts are in error?

James

[Theocan]

This goes the same with Bible, with selling women, slaves, polygamy, mass murders, and hatred of homosexuality. These are men's bias in scripture. God knows this, but I guess the question why God does not tell people to correct it? God wants us to have a life experience, and my personal belief is, you only truly learn something when you fail. Who is not to say some prophets failed to see some of that? They're are not perfect, they had to learn too.

So if you're trying to justify that it isn't true because of some of this, then you have mistaken. While reading scripture we have to apply some common logic of tolerance in it as well, and see it for what it is.

[idea]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

Most of the proofs I have read on these forums regarding the Book of Mormon suppose that Joseph Smith, for various reasons, could not have authored the Book of Mormon himself. I will suppose for a moment that he did not author it himself, that it indeed came from other sources. Still, I dispute the morality of certain passages in the Book of Mormon. As such, I could not commit myself to believing that the Book of Mormon is inspired of God or truthful in every sense. I don't believe that about any book. If there are supernatural sources for the Book of Mormon -- and for the purpose of this thread I assume that -- I cannot believe that these sources are good.

See some troubling passages below:

2 Nephi 23
23:15 Every one that is proud shall be thrust through; yea, and every one that is joined to the wicked shall fall by the sword.

23:16 Their children, also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled and their wives ravished.

23:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver and gold, nor shall they delight in it.

23:18 Their bows shall also dash the young men to pieces, and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

The most troubling part of this passage to me is that God will stir up people who will have no pity on "the fruit of the womb" or children. Why could God not spare the innocent children?

2 Nephi 6

6:15 And they that believe not in him shall be destroyed, both by fire, and by tempest, and by earthquakes, and by bloodsheds, and by pestilence, and by famine. And they shall know that the Lord is God, the Holy One of Israel.

I find this troubling, too. Why should someone be punished this way for not believing in Christ? Are such people so wicked that they deserve such punishment? I happen to know some great people who do not believe in Christ, and I don't see how this merits punishment.

2 Nephi
28:23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Should anyone, no matter how wicked, be tormented forever? What kind of a god would torture a creature he made for an eternity? What kind of human being would do that? Hitler? Osama bin Laden?

In these brief passages, I have read of a god that has people murder innocent infants and children, a god who destroys people for not believing in Christ (how many people would he have to kill?), and a god who judges people according to their works, yet deems finite evil a justification for torturing someone forever.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to serve that kind of a god, a god that kills infants, destroys people for unbelief, and a god capable of torturing any living being for all eternity.

If it was a true god that inspired such writings and actions, I want no part in him.

James

It is nice to see another investigating the church. I had similar concerns the first time I read the Book of Mormon, and yes, they are the same types of concerns I had with the Bible. There is some additional info though that changed some things for me.

"What kind of a god would torture a creature he made for an eternity?"
God did not create us. Biblical support from this thread "link"
That God is mercifully adopting us, and will not go agaisnt our free agency, is not responsible for any of the evils in the world. That was a big deal for me. If we end up suffering, it is our own doing, not God's. God is doing everything in His power - save take away our agency - everything in His power to turn us into loving beautiful beings.... When I was little my mom forced me to play the piano - I hated it, but now I am glad for the hell she put me through, because I love the piano... No pain no gain - would you rather He put you through hell so that you could become a better person? or just leave you alone, leave you in the state He found you in? I choose pain, I don't want to stay in the place where He found me....

As far as having to believe in Jesus. we have baptisms for the dead, so that everyone gets a chance to follow or not. No one is condemned for what they do not know. Once you know -not just that JEsus exists, but know His nature - His loving merciful humble perfect nature - if you are willing spit in the face of a humble merciful loving person who died for you, know 100% who he actually is and what he actually has done - if you 100% know that someone loved you enough to die for you, did die for you, and with that knowledge, you reject them. You separate yourself from their love, it is not God's fault or Jesus' fault if reject love.

children.
God knows more than we do. death is not a bad thing, all children are saved in celestial kingdom. Not saying anyone should give up on life, this is where we learn... if we have to go through hell to learn, so be it, the worst kind of hell, losing a child, if that is what it takes to open eyes. you don't know what you've got until it's gone... it is all a learning process. Horrible what is required to change us and make us see...

The reson for the tests etc is the final goal - to become like God, to be Parents. Do you let just anyone do this? who should get the powers of heaven? the powers of Parenthood? huge responsibility, that is why the test is so hard, why we are taken to the limit.

It is good to know that we chose to take this test. We chose to come here, to be taken to our limits and find what we can handle.

I don't know if that helps or not. good luck on your journeys.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

How do you know which parts are truth and which parts are in error?

I think it would be safe to say that we consider it all to be true unless proven otherwise. As Starfish pointed out, any errors would likely be in grammar or punctuation, not in the gist of the message. There have actually been a few very minor changes to the text over time, but these were due to the fact that certain passages were being misinterpreted and a single word change seemed to clarify the issue. Also, most of these changes were made by Joseph Smith in the very early editions of the book and several were made because of typesetting errors made in the first edition. Overall, there have been very few changes of this sort, and there's no reason to try to read the book looking for something that might be in error. The reason we describe it as fallible is that it was translated by a human being and human beings are not perfect. It was also written by human beings. We believe them to have been inspired, but it is, after all, a religious and secular history and anyone who undertakes to record a history is going to do so from his own perspective. Someone else describing the same events might have done so from a slightly different slant. We read the book to grow closer to God and to better understand our Savior's sacrifice. The book is "true" in that it accomplishes this purpose.

[spiritually inclined]

As far as having to believe in Jesus. we have baptisms for the dead, so that everyone gets a chance to follow or not. No one is condemned for what they do not know. Once you know -not just that JEsus exists, but know His nature - His loving merciful humble perfect nature - if you are willing spit in the face of a humble merciful loving person who died for you, know 100% who he actually is and what he actually has done - if you 100% know that someone loved you enough to die for you, did die for you, and with that knowledge, you reject them. You separate yourself from their love, it is not God's fault or Jesus' fault if reject love.

How can this justify eternal torment? Suppose a soul rejects God and Christ and later wants another chance. Would God not then forgive? Or is there a cut off point?

You also did not address the passages in which God has infants slaughtered. How is that just?

James

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

How can this justify eternal torment?

We don't need to justify it. We don't believe in it.

Suppose a soul rejects God and Christ and later wants another chance. Would God not then forgive?

Short answer: yes. It's actually a little more involved than that.

Or is there a cut off point?

Yes, but it's so far in the future that it almost becomes immaterial. By the time this cut-off point comes, everyone who has ever lived will have been given all of the spiritual enlightenment they need to make a truly informed decision on the matter. God is not looking for loopholes that will justify His comdemning billions of His own children. He wants them all back and will do everything He can to help them want to be back with Him again.