isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[ayani]

here is my take- if one loves Jesus and wishes to learn more about Him and His life, one will look to the Gospels.

for Christians, the four Gospels of the New Testament describe the ministry, travels, words, miracles, commandments, and walk of Jesus, whose name among Arab-speaking Christians has never been Isa, but rather Yasoa.

for a Muslim, the Christian deification of Jesus is shirk. and disrespectful to Jesus. therefor, many Muslims would automatically assume that Christians, in deifying Jesus, have no real understanding or respect for Him, and the the Quran says truer and more honorable things about Jesus, anyway.

yet what one must understand, is that the teachings and lived example of Jesus are very different from the teachings of the Quran, and the lived example of Muhammad.

within Islam, the messenger and the message are separate. or rather, the text of the message and the texts concerning the messenger are two distinct bodies of writing. we have the Quran, which is held to be the words of God revealed to Muhammad over 23 years by an angel, and we have the hadith which describe Muhammad's life, manners, undertakings, and sayings. nearly all Muslims would say that one needs the hadith to fully understand the Quran, even though the Quran itself claims that it is complete, and stands by itself. many hadith add things as recommended or necessary to Islamic life and practice which the Quran does not mention. for example, the practice of a Muslim woman's covering her face is not Quranic, but derived from hadith.

in Islam, Muhammad is revered as a messenger or prophet, and his life, described through the hadith, is held as the standard to which all Muslims should aspire; the Quran is God's final revelation to humanity, in the same tradition as the Gospels, a message given by the same God. if Islam is a continuation of that tradition, it would reason that within Islam, as within Christianity through the life and example of Christ, both the messenger and the message reflect the same truths and standards.


yet this is not the case. within many of the hadith concerning Muhammad, Muhammad does not reflect the message of the Quran in many aspects of his life, throughout his life. for example, in many places the Quran in its general message tells Muslims to fight back justly against attack, but says that mercy is better. yet in his own life, Muhammad does not follow this rule. after Muhammad had conquered Medina, when given the 700 captured BanuQaynuqa men from that city, Jewish men who had been his enemies, his first command was to put all 700 captives to death immediately- he wanted to kill them all, not show them mercy. how is he, then, reflecting the Quran? another example is this- the Quran limits the number of wives a man may take to four- no more than that. yet Muhammad had as many as 13 wives over the course of his life, being married to as many as 10 women at the same time. one must wonder, that if the knowledge contained in the Quran is eternally binding, and if Muhammad was truly in such an intimate relationship with God, why would he be unaware of God's standards? or choose to transgress them? can a person truly be a servant of God if he ignores God's mandates, or places himself above them? within Islam, the example of the messenger and the text of the message are very much distinct, and many times do not match up.

historically, Muhammad was both a political and religious leader- to the Muslims, both a prophet and a general. He lead armies of His followers against His enemies, and gained many worldly things in these campaigns- items from caravan raids, spoils from war, wives, and land. many of the women he married were widowed precisely because these battles- because of Muhammad, they lost their husbands, and were then approached by Muhammad for marriage. by the time of Muhammad's death, the land that he had gained in the name of Islam encompassed the entire Arabian Peninsula.


Christians do not have the equivalent separation between Quran and hadith, as in Islam. there are quite a few Muslims who believe that Jesus Himself wrote the Gospels, or wrote the entire Bible. Jesus did not come with a text, or surahs, or a set of words on parchment, neither did He command anyone to write anything down for Him. He taught the words of God not with a book, but with His life. in this way, Jesus is both Quran, and hadith- the Word of God given to all peoples as a man, sanctifying God in all that He did, consistently and without contradiction between His message and His living example. when Christians read the New Testament, they read about Jesus, and they read His words and teachings, too. Jesus said to those who came to Him that their light should shine forth before men, so that others might see their good words and glorify God. Jesus, being God's Son, and being of God, also did this- His life glorified and testified to God's love, truth, forgiveness, and power. through Jesus, Christians are shown the way to God, as Jesus says that He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Jesus, unlike Muhammad, was clear that His kingdom was not of this world. Jesus owned very little, and never sought worldly power or land gains, neither did He seek to rise up against His enemies by force. He insisted that the world and the spirit of God were not compatible- one can not be rich in the things of the world, and also truly rich in God. He directed the wealthy to sell all that they had to the poor- to give up the world and seek God first. He taught that one should store up treasures in heaven, not treasures on earth, whether money or goods or land. all these things can be taken away, but a heart in love with God and with one's brothers and sisters for His sake can never be taken away, for it does not belong to this world, but to God's kingdom.

Jesus spoke with His life, and allowed Himself to be used fully as an instrument of God's grace, words, and will. all that He did, He did for God and for His brothers and sisters- for us. He loved these more than Himself, even to the point of giving up His dignity and His life for us on the cross. Christians are commanded to love the One True God with all our hearts, and all our souls, and all our might, and love our neighbor as ourselves. we are commanded to love even those we perceive as our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us. if Muslims truly believe that Jesus was a messenger of God to be respected, they should be aware that Jesus Himself has taught that these two commandments- to love God and to love one's fellow men- are the greatest commandments of God.


Muslims must ask themselves, does the life of Muhammad reflect these commandments? does the life of Muhammad reflect the instructions and standards of the Quran, let alone the life and message of Jesus? the message and the messenger must not be saying and doing different things. and if Muhammad has truly come in the name of the same God that sent Jesus with the Good News, Muhammad's message and life must not contradict that of Jesus, or revert to a lesser standard. that would be hypocrisy, and chaotic. is God a god of hypocrisy and chaos? or a God or truth, and order?

one who loves another will keep their commandments- that is how i see it, and how, with God's help, i live it. if a Muslim loves and respects Jesus, it would make sense for him or her to read about Jesus from the scriptures belonging to the People of the Book- in this case, the Gospels. and then, to follow Jesus' commands and example- whether or not one find immediate fault with many Christian teachings, such as the trinity. one should go to the messenger to hear His message. as a Christian, i have decided to follow Jesus. He has called me, and chosen me. He is for me the Living Word, as He is both God's messenger, and God's message, who through Himself shows the way to God, and bids us follow Him. in following Him, we must be Christ-like ~ prayerful, poor, forgiving, and humble, generous, and truthful, giving our lives over to God and to our brothers and sisters, as Christ did.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by ayani

as a Christian, i have decided to follow Jesus. He has called me, and chosen me. He is for me the Living Word, as He is both God's messenger, and God's message, who through Himself shows the way to God, and bids us follow Him. in following Him, we must be Christ-like ~ prayerful, poor, forgiving, and humble, generous, and truthful, giving our lives over to God and to our brothers and sisters, as Christ did.

That is simply beautiful, Ayani. Your questions are important ones and quietly demand meaningful answers, not intellectually dishonest double-talk, but honest and direct answers.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by ayani

many hadith add things as recommended or necessary to Islamic life and practice which the Quran does not mention. for example, the practice of a Muslim woman's covering her face is not Quranic, but derived from hadith.

[32] Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": but if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. (Quran 3:32)

[144] Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve him) with gratitude. (Quran 3:144)

Mohammed is a prophet like those who were before him, were sent to guide people, not to be worshipped beside Allah.

Do you know why Allah asked us to follow Mohammed?

Because the non-muslims at that time were believeing in Allah, but they just didn't want to follow Mohammed, just like the Christians today who accept God as their lord but reject Mohammed, or like the Jews who reject Isa.

[61] If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to His Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah." How are they then deluded away (from the truth)? (Quran 29:61)

in Islam, Muhammad is revered as a messenger or prophet, and his life, described through the hadith, is held as the standard to which all Muslims should aspire; the Quran is God's final revelation to humanity, in the same tradition as the Gospels, a message given by the same God. if Islam is a continuation of that tradition, it would reason that within Islam, as within Christianity through the life and example of Christ, both the messenger and the message reflect the same truths and standards.

That's not true, because if everything was *ok*, Allah would not have sent prophet Mohammed to the worlds, and also, to guide the christians who have been misguided, and he wouldn't have sent Jesus to the Jews as well.

yet this is not the case. within many of the hadith concerning Muhammad, Muhammad does not reflect the message of the Quran in many aspects of his life, throughout his life. for example, in many places the Quran in its general message tells Muslims to fight back justly against attack, but says that mercy is better. yet in his own life, Muhammad does not follow this rule.

You think Allah would allow that? then what's the point?

Mohammed can't disobey Allah, otherwise ...

[44] And if the Messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,

[45] We should certainly seize him by his right hand,

[46] And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:

[47] Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath).

[48] But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing.

[49] And We certainly know that there are amongst you those that reject (it).

[50] But truly (Revelation) is a cause of sorrow for the Unbelievers.

[51] But verily it is Truth of assured certainty.

[52] So glorify the name of thy Lord Most High. (Quran 69:44-52)

You believe the Quran to be the word of God, that's what it says.

after Muhammad had conquered Medina, when given the 700 captured BanuQaynuqa men from that city, Jewish men who had been his enemies, his first command was to put all 700 captives to death immediately- he wanted to kill them all, not show them mercy.

Sorry ayani, but you need to read the story from a trustworthy sources. Mohammed DID NOT conquere Medina. The people there welcomed him because they accepted Islam, except the Jews who were living there. Then Prophet Mohammed has made a treaty with them. One day, a muslim woman went to their market to sell something, then she was setting next to one man there who was selling some goods, to fix something for her, then the jews gathered around her and wanted to uncover the veil in her face. Then, when she refused, they tied up part of her clothes while she is not aware so when she stand up, her private part would appear from the back. When she stood, it happened, then one muslim got angry from that and killed the one who did it, and then the jews came and killed that muslim man. After that, the family of that muslim man asked for help from the muslims for what happened to their son.

After that, Prophet Mohammed and the muslims went to them, and reach the BanuQaynuqa and waited there for 15 days till BanuQaynuqa has surrender and prophet Mohammed ruled that they be expelled for their treason, and violation for the treaty. No body was killed from them, according to my resources. If you have some other sources which states that prophet Mohammed has killed them then please show them to me.

another example is this- the Quran limits the number of wives a man may take to four- no more than that. yet Muhammad had as many as 13 wives over the course of his life.

within Islam, the example of the messenger and the text of the message are very much distinct, and many times do not match up.

You can read about that in here:
Why Did Muhammad Have So Many Wives? - Reading Islam.com

by the time of Muhammad's death, the land that he had gained in the name of Islam encompassed the entire Arabian Peninsula.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that. Did you read about the previous prophets?

Each one of them had a mission from God.

Jesus, being God's Son, and being of God, also did this- His life glorified and testified to God's love, truth, forgiveness, and power. through Jesus, Christians are shown the way to God, as Jesus says that He is the way, the truth, and the life.

Do you believe that the bible is the word of God? if not, then where did you know about what Isa was doing or saying?

Jesus, unlike Muhammad, was clear that His kingdom was not of this world. Jesus ....

Again, do you get all that from the bible, which is the word of God?

Christians are commanded to love the One True God with all our hearts

Do you mean Allah, Jesus, or both?

Muslims must ask themselves, does the life of Muhammad reflect these commandments? does the life of Muhammad reflect the instructions and standards of the Quran

Yes he did, and if not, tell me when did he violate the commandments of Allah.

let alone the life and message of Jesus? the message and the messenger must not be saying and doing different things. and if Muhammad has truly come in the name of the same God that sent Jesus with the Good News, Muhammad's message and life must not contradict that of Jesus, or revert to a lesser standard. that would be hypocrisy, and chaotic. is God a god of hypocrisy and chaos? or a God or truth, and order?

That's your own judgement. If you really believe the Quran to be the word of Allah as you claim then hear this:

[285] The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His Books, and His Messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His Messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey, (we seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys." (Quran 2:285)

His Lord is not Isa, but Allah.

if a Muslim loves and respects Jesus, it would make sense for him or her to read about Jesus from the scriptures belonging to the People of the Book- in this case, the Gospels.

The bible?

and then, to follow Jesus' commands and example

We follow Allah, not his servants.

whether or not one find immediate fault with many Christian teachings, such as the trinity. one should go to the messenger to hear His message. as a Christian, i have decided to follow Jesus. He has called me, and chosen me. He is for me the Living Word, as He is both God's messenger, and God's message, who through Himself shows the way to God, and bids us follow Him. in following Him, we must be Christ-like ~ prayerful, poor, forgiving, and humble, generous, and truthful, giving our lives over to God and to our brothers and sisters, as Christ did.

Isa was a great example, but there is no point of you said God is three. If you said God is not three then you are not a christian, because christians should follow what the bible says, no? otherwise, how do you supposed to know what Jesus was saying or doing?

Here are my questions to you:

1- Do you believe the bible to be the word of God? if not, how can you be sure what they say about Isa is true?

2- Do you believe the Quran to be the word of Allah? if not, how come you are trying to prove that Mohammed didn't follow the Quran-assuming you believe in the Quran?

3- If you believe the Quran to be the word of Allah, then how do you think prophet Mohammed wasn't following the word of Allah, and the Quran itself was revealed to him.


Thank you.

[Peace]

ayani ~ Sorry to say it, but you have to check up your information about Islam and the prophet of Islam whom Allah had chosen to be his final Prophet and Messenger to convey the last message to all humanity. You should read about Islam from authentic reliable sources.
God never errs or choose wrong people. God chose and He knows what He had chosen, He chose the best people on the earth to be His messengers.
The character of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him was that of the Quran and he was indeed the embodiment of the Quran in work and deed, for he practised what is therein from the first letter in the Quran to the last one.
[And We have not sent you forth but as a mercy to mankind. ] (Al-Anbiyaa’: 107)

Obedience to the Messenger is the indication of one's obedience to God:

[Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed God. If anyone turns away, we did not send you to them as their keeper.] An-Nisaa' 4:80

And disobedience to a messenger is direct disobedience to God and His religion. God relates the state of those who obey the Messenger and those who don't:

(These are limits set by God. As for those who obey God and His Messenger, We will admit them into Gardens with rivers flowing under them, remaining in them timelessly, forever. That is the Great Victory. As for those who disobey God and His Messenger and overstep His limits, We will admit them into a Fire to abide therein. They will have a humiliating punishment).An-Nisaa' 4:13-14

believers should obey the Messenger wholeheartedly, without harboring the slightest doubt or showing any hesitation

[No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you their judge in the disputes that break out between them and then find no resistance within themselves to what you decide and submit themselves completely.] An-Nisaa' 4:65

[Whoever obeys God and the Messenger will be with those whom God has blessed: The Prophets and the truthful, the witnesses (who testify) and the righteous (who do good). What excellent company such people are!](An-Nisaa' 4:69)

[All who obey God and His Messenger and have awe of God and fear Him, they are the ones who are victorious.](An-Nur 24:52)


[Say: "Obey God and obey the Messenger. If you should turn away, he is only responsible for what he is charged with and you are responsible for what you are charged with. If you obey him, you will be guided." The Messenger is only responsible for conveying the message clearly.](An-Nur 24:54)

The above verses are very few from the many stated in the Quran about obeying the Prophet.

If you believe that Quran is the word of God you should know the standing of the Prophet peace be upon him.
[You who believe! Do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet and do not be loud when speaking to him as you are when speaking to one another, lest your actions should become vain without your realizing it. Those who lower their voices when they are with the Messenger of God are people whose hearts God has disposed towards God. They will have forgiveness and an immense reward.](Al-Hujurat 49:3)

Please read:


The prophet's Love for Mankind

Was Prophet Muhammad unjust to the Jews?

Peace

[ayani]

the question asked, Abu and Peace, was "who shows more respect to Jesus", Muslims or Christians.

anyone who wishes to respect someone, will listen to them. the Quran itself gives permission for Muslims to check with the People of the Book for information on past messengers- and to check with them, one must check with their scriptures. so it would reason that if it's ok for a Muslim to read the Gospels for accurate information about Jesus (as why would God send a Muslim to read an inaccurate scripture?), then these scriptures can not be all that corrupted. and yes, i do believe that what the Bible says about Jesus is accurate.

if these scriptures (the Gospel accounts of Jesus) are ok to read, and if the words of Jesus and the example of Jesus are presenting a message different from the Quran and from the example lived by Muhammad, shouldn't this be a cause for interest?

i emphasize the political career of Muhammad to draw the parallel, and to bring attention to Jesus' own words- one can not serve both worldly interests and God's interests, and not be a hypocrite and astray. to seek political power, land, goods, and wives is to seek the things of this world, according to Jesus. Jesus was clear that His kingdom was not of this world, and His living example goes along with this claim. materially, He was very poor, and did not seek worldly power- when Satan offered Him bread in the desert and the kingdoms of the earth, He rebuked Him, and chose the fasting God had inspired Him to undertake. Jesus did away with the "an eye for an eye" standard of justice, and the Quran re-instates it. one can not believe and follow both Jesus' words on the issue, which in His own words were final, and the Quran's permission to seek vengeance. there is indeed a contrast.

the way i respect Jesus is to follow His commandments, to trust in Him and also in the One who sent Him. i believe that He has been sent by God, to save, to teach, and to call mankind to God through Him. for me, He is the Living Word, both message and messenger. if i follow Jesus' words, commandments, and teachings, i can not at the same time take the advice, commandments, or ultimately claims to the Quran to heart as well.

what i am doing, interestingly, is not un-Quranic. in listening to, believing in, and following God's messenger and Son, Jesus, i am doing what the Quran asks of me, too. i am respecting the One whom God has sent by reading about Him, and seeking to live as He has asked us to live. here is a small poem, to summarize this faith:

Lord God, in all Your Son did, He did for You and for His brothers and sisters
He has fed the hungry, He has healed the sick, He has raised the dead, and made the blind see
may we take Him as our Teacher and Saviour, and do what He has asked of us
may we also give everything for You and for our brothers and sisters, and speak of Your Son to all peoples
our Risen Lord, the Living Word, our Saviour, Jesus

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by ayani

the question asked, Abu and Peace, was "who shows more respect to Jesus", Muslims or Christians.

anyone who wishes to respect someone, will listen to them. the Quran itself gives permission for Muslims to check with the People of the Book for information on past messengers- and to check with them, one must check with their scriptures. so it would reason that if it's ok for a Muslim to read the Gospels for accurate information about Jesus (as why would God send a Muslim to read an inaccurate scripture?), then these scriptures can not be all that corrupted. and yes, i do believe that what the Bible says about Jesus is accurate.

I didn't ask whether what the bible says about Jesus is true or not, my question was, do you believe the bible to be the word of Allah? a Yes or No answer would be suffiecient here.

i emphasize the political career of Muhammad to draw the parallel, and to bring attention to Jesus' own words- one can not serve both worldly interests and God's interests

I think you are confusing what the bible says with what the Quran says. The Quran is clear about what prophet Mohammed has done, and Mohammed "peace be upon him" didn't go against Allah's laws.

He was very poor

Wow, and prophet Mohammed was a rich king? do you really know Mohammed?

Please don't compare between Mohammed and Jesus based on the bible. I think you do believe the Quran to be the word of God, so let's come, me and you to reason using the Quran, if you don't mind, to compare who loves and respect Isa more, Muslims or christians. Please don't take this issue up to Mohammed and Jesus.

the way i respect Jesus is to follow His commandments, to trust in Him and also in the One who sent Him. i believe that He has been sent by God, to save, to teach, and to call mankind to God through Him. for me, He is the Living Word, both message and messenger. if i follow Jesus' words, commandments, and teachings, i can not at the same time take the advice, commandments, or ultimately claims to the Quran to heart as well.

Do you believe the Quran to be the word of God? Yes or No answer would be fine here as well.

what i am doing, interestingly, is not un-Quranic. in listening to, believing in, and following God's messenger and Son, Jesus, i am doing what the Quran asks of me, too. i am respecting the One whom God has sent by reading about Him, and seeking to live as He has asked us to live.

[30] The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Al-Masih the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Quran 9:30)

here is a small poem, to summarize this faith:

Lord God, in all Your Son did, He did for You and for His brothers and sisters
He has fed the hungry, He has healed the sick, He has raised the dead, and made the blind see
may we take Him as our Teacher and Saviour, and do what He has asked of us
may we also give everything for You and for our brothers and sisters, and speak of Your Son to all peoples
our Risen Lord, the Living Word, our Saviour, Jesus

Beautiful poem, but to sad that, Christians think Isa has the power to do all these things on his own. It was ONLY by the permission of Allah. For Isa has no power except the power which has been given to him by Allah.

[171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (Quran 4:171)