isa (as) /jesus(pbuh)

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

I can't imagine a god who *supposed* to be the one who created human beings, then according to the christians, thought it would be cool to be human too, to be humiliated by those whom he created!

Dear Abu (formerly known as "The Truth") Khalid,

Logic would dictate that one would have to momentarily suspend their current dogmatic thinking to approach an understanding of this. Within the psychological straightjacket that is Islam, such things are not possible, therefore it is unlikely that you could understand. Since when did "god" have to play by your rules? Aren't you being a little presumptuous?

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

Dear Abu (formerly known as "The Truth") Khalid,

Logic would dictate that one would have to momentarily suspend their current dogmatic thinking to approach an understanding of this. Within the psychological straightjacket that is Islam, such things are not possible, therefore it is unlikely that you could understand. Since when did "god" have to play by your rules? Aren't you being a little presumptuous?

Allah is not stupid to think that it would be a great idea to be human. You make me feel now that you believe you are smarter than God.


[60] To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil: to Allah applies the highest similitude: for He is the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.


[61] If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature: but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).


[62] They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves). And their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it! (Quran 16:60-62)

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

Allah is not stupid to think that it would be a great idea to be human.

Am I to assume that you know the mind of "god", Abu?

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

You make me feel now that you believe you are smarter than God.

I make no such claims and so I must conclude this is a mere deflection because you know what I am saying is probably true.

Originally Posted by The "Noble" Qur'an

60 - To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil: to Allah applies the highest similitude: for He is the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.

So... if one does not believe in the dwarfed Islamic notion of the Hereafter then they are evil and this is because Allah is everything good, rippling with power and dripping with wisdom. Given that there is no LEGITIMATE way to prove this point, one can only wonder why the author felt a need to make it. Then again, this is "revelation" so these incongruities are to be expected.

Originally Posted by The "Noble" Koran

61-If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing, He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature:

Abu, you have to admit that this is a very odd thing to say. The first part specifically says "If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing" this nugget of genius is then followed by "He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature". My question is two-fold.
1. Since when does "men" (meant here as humanity) equate to every single living creature?
2. Why would Allah, in his magnificent reasoning, kill off ALL LIFE (i.e. all mammals, all amphibians, all reptiles, all insects, all birds etc...) to punish one particular group he has issues with. Is this supposed to be reasonable?

Originally Posted by The "Noble" Koran

but He gives them respite for a stated Term: when their Term expires, they would not be able to delay (the punishment) for a single hour, just as they would not be able to anticipate it (for a single hour).

I will assume the writer of this (or translator... prolly both) was on some pretty powerful drugs, because this statement does not actually make all that much sense in English. I suppose this is showing how merciful Allah is in his great wisdom and power, in that "he" stays his "hand" until the Hereafter and then lowers the boom on the freshly deceased mortal. How exceptionally big of "him" is that? One is still struck with the rather obvious sense of foreboding the passage thrusts on the believer and unbeliever. Why would anyone in their right mind want to meet the god of Islam? Seriously.

Originally Posted by The "Noble" Quran

62 - They attribute to Allah what they hate (for themselves). And their tongues assert the falsehood that all good things are for themselves: without doubt for them is the Fire, and they will be the first to be hastened on into it!

More cheery thinking from Allah. He has such a wonderful sense of humor, doesn't he? Unfortunately this kind of thinking is only effective with small children, fools and the uneducated, superstitious masses.

Try a bit harder, Abu.

In regards to the OP, Islam specifically removes the Christhood of Jesus thereby making him a mere Prophet. "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] is still seen to be slightly superior to Christ and sadly, that is untenable to this snivelling lump of flesh. The reason why Christ is not seen as divinity itself is because that blows Islam out of the spiritual water, as it were. Reducing such a wonderous being, as the Joyous Nazarene, to status of "prophet" allows Muhammed to step beyond the true status of the Christ and supplanting his preaching with an agenda of his own. Given the Allah felt a need to abrogate parts of the Qur'an is indicative that the author isn't very "godlike" and given Muhammed's fixation of Hellfire one is left wondering whom the real source of the Qur'an is. We have it only on Prophet Muhammed's say so that his intermediary was the Archangel Gabriel, for example. How are we to know if he was mistaken? The thing is... we wouldn't.

[not4me]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

More cheery thinking from Allah. He has such a wonderful sense of humor, doesn't he? Unfortunately this kind of thinking is only effective with small children, fools and the uneducated, superstitious masses.

Absolutely, this kind of thinking is not for people who hallucinate about "out of body" reality "where" there's a green and blue world then call their hallucinations "enlightenment". Only effective with "fools, the uneducated and superstitious masses"!! This leads me to wonder; who are the fools and superstitious exactly?

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by not4me

Absolutely, this kind of thinking is not for people who hallucinate about "out of body" reality "where" there's a green and blue world then call their hallucinations "enlightenment". Only effective with "fools, the uneducated and superstitious masses"!! This leads me to wonder; who are the fools and superstitious exactly?

Is this "informed" statement supposed to be meaningful? I hope you are fortunate enough to perceive reality beyond the confines of the flesh, sooner, rather than later, as then you will not be compelled to prattle on negatively about things you cannot presently understand.

In regards to enlightenment, it would seem that Buddhists and Taoist quite like a lot of the things I say, so that should give one some pause before belittling yet another thing of which they have little understanding.

I'll leave you with a riddle, laden with meaning.

The only thing I am 100% sure of is that I know nothing, however I do know "nothingness" very well.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

Am I to assume that you know the mind of "god", Abu?

I only know what He told us about himself in the Quran.

I make no such claims and so I must conclude this is a mere deflection because you know what I am saying is probably true.

lol.

So... if one does not believe in the dwarfed Islamic notion of the Hereafter then they are evil and this is because Allah is everything good, rippling with power and dripping with wisdom. Given that there is no LEGITIMATE way to prove this point, one can only wonder why the author felt a need to make it. Then again, this is "revelation" so these incongruities are to be expected.

Allah didn't say they were evil but said: "To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil",and that's because they were giving him false attributes, mentioned in same Sura, verse 57-59.

Their rejection and disbelief in the hereafter caused them to live in ignorance about HIM and HIS wisdom, for He is the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.

Abu, you have to admit that this is a very odd thing to say. The first part specifically says "If Allah were to punish men for their wrong-doing" this nugget of genius is then followed by "He would not leave, on the (earth), a single living creature". My question is two-

fold.
1. Since when does "men" (meant here as humanity) equate to every single living creature?
2. Why would Allah, in his magnificent reasoning, kill off ALL LIFE (i.e. all mammals, all amphibians, all reptiles, all insects, all birds etc...) to punish one particular group he has issues with. Is this supposed to be reasonable?

Allah is saying for "their wrong-doing" which means that:

- When we do wrong things, that doesn't only affect us, but the creatures around us as well. It's so simple as when human beings throw nuclear garbage on the sea, then that will turn around and affect your health somehow later on.

- Allah is giving us an example of his favor on us, by giving us food from plants and animals which live in an oganized and perfect cycle to result at the end on us getting the benefit from all that. Don't forget the little creatures living in your own stomach, and in your body in general. All that is designed by Allah to help us live in this life. If it wouldn't for Allah creating all these creatures around us, we wouldn't be able to survive.

It's so clear in this verse in particular:

[31] Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? Or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? And who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say, "Allah." Say, "Will ye not then show piety (to Him)?" (Quran 10:33)

I will assume the writer of this (or translator... prolly both) was on some pretty powerful drugs, because this statement does not actually make all that much sense in English. I suppose this is showing how merciful Allah is in his great wisdom and power, in that "he" stays his "hand" until the Hereafter and then lowers the boom on the freshly deceased mortal. How exceptionally big of "him" is that? One is still struck with the rather obvious sense of foreboding the passage thrusts on the believer and unbeliever. Why would anyone in their right mind want to meet the god of Islam? Seriously.

You can ask him that when you meet him, if he allowed you to do so.

More cheery thinking from Allah. He has such a wonderful sense of humor, doesn't he? Unfortunately this kind of thinking is only effective with small children, fools and the uneducated, superstitious masses.

Try a bit harder, Abu.

I'm not trying anything. I'm just presenting the word of Allah.

In regards to the OP, Islam specifically removes the Christhood of Jesus thereby making him a mere Prophet. "Prophet" Muhammed [pbuh] is still seen to be slightly superior to Christ and sadly, that is untenable to this snivelling lump of flesh. The reason why Christ is not seen as divinity itself is because that blows Islam out of the spiritual water, as it were. Reducing such a wonderous being, as the Joyous Nazarene, to status of "prophet" allows Muhammed to step beyond the true status of the Christ and supplanting his preaching with an agenda of his own. Given the Allah felt a need to abrogate parts of the Qur'an is indicative that the author isn't very "godlike" and given Muhammed's fixation of Hellfire one is left wondering whom the real source of the Qur'an is. We have it only on Prophet Muhammed's say so that his intermediary was the Archangel Gabriel, for example. How are we to know if he was mistaken? The thing is... we wouldn't.

[34] Say: "Of your 'partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" Say: "It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?"


[35] Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards Truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards Truth. Is then He Who gives guidance to Truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"


[36] But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against Truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.

[37] This Qur-an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the Worlds.


[38] Or do they say, "He forged it?" Say: "Bring then a Sura like unto it, and call (to your aid) anyone you can besides Allah, if it be ye speak the truth!"


[39] Nay, they charge with falsehood that whose knowledge they cannot compass, even before the elucidation thereof hath reached them: thus did those before them make charges of falsehood: but see what was the end of those who did wrong!

[40] Of them there are some who believe therein, and some who do not: and thy Lord knoweth best those who are out for mischief.


[41] If they charge thee with falsehood, say: "My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do and I for what ye do!"


[42] Among them are some who (pretend to) listen to thee: but canst thou make the deaf to hear, even though they are without understanding?


[43] And among them are some who look at thee: but canst thou guide the blind, even though they will not see?

[44] Verily Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul. (Quran 10:34-44)


Peace.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

I only know what He told us about himself in the Quran.

You wouldn't hear a peep from me if you said, "Allah is purported to have said..." The idea being is that you cannot legitimately state that "Allah said such and such" as you cannot prove unequivocally that, in fact, he did say so. The whole oratory of the Qur'an is fourth hand information and no authorative outside source has ever confirmed it. In essence, we have to take Muhammad’s word for the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

Allah didn't say they were evil but said: "

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

To those who believe not in the Hereafter, applies the similitude of evil”, and that's because they were giving him false attributes, mentioned in same Sura, verse 57-59.

If that is the case then why not you not include those passages as well? Taken out of context, as supplied by you, the passages do look rather awful. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

Their rejection and disbelief in the hereafter caused them to live in ignorance about HIM and HIS wisdom,

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

for He is the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.

Perhaps I am foolish, but why on earth would Allah state something that is abundantly obvious to a person with the slightest bit of intelligence. It is somewhat absurd to say that those who do not believe or reject the Islamic notions of the hereafter causes those folks to live in ignorance about Allah and his so-called "wisdom". News flash! From the Islamic perspective it is really an "Um, dah!" scenario as it is pretty obvious that if someone didn't believe in Muhammad’s dissertations about Paradise, it is unlikely that those people would be inclined to believe in the "god" of Islam either. So, in essence, in this passage, Allah just seems to be preaching to the choir?

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

Allah is saying for "their wrong-doing" which means that:

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

- When we do wrong things, that doesn't only affect us, but the creatures around us as well. It's so simple as when human beings throw nuclear garbage on the sea, then that will turn around and affect your health somehow later on.

I suppose that make a bit of sense, but nonetheless it is still a rather extreme way to put it, especially when these words were allegedly imparted over 1400 years ago. It is almost absurd of Allah to allegedly say he would wipe out all life given the reach of humans on their environment at the time. My gut instinct is this is one of those troublesome passages that "scholars" have sought to explain over the centuries because its isn't a particularly logical thing for a god to do. It is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

- Allah is giving us an example of his favor on us, by giving us food from plants and animals which live in an organized and perfect cycle to result at the end on us getting the benefit from all that. Don't forget the little creatures living in your own stomach, and in your body in general. All that is designed by Allah to help us live in this life. If it wouldn't for Allah creating all these creatures around us, we wouldn't be able to survive.

I suppose Abu, but you have to keep in mind that many people do not need a god at the helm of reality to make the physical universe work as it does. Forgive me if I don't praise Allah for the microbes. It is unlikely that the microbes care.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

It's so clear in this verse in particular:

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

[31] Say: "Who is it that sustains you (in life) from the sky and from the earth? Or who is it that has power over hearing and sight? And who is it that brings out the living from the dead and the dead from the living? And who is it that rules and regulates all affairs?" They will soon say, "Allah." Say, "Will ye not then show piety (to Him)?" (Quran 10:33)

Nope, although I understand what you are saying, these are all suppositions that have no bearing on observable reality, my friend. You can equally ascribe these things to the tooth fairy if you like; it doesn't make it so, no matter how much you may believe that it does.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

You can ask him that when you meet him, if he allowed you to do so.

Hehe. Once again, we have a clear example of the ever cheery Muslim sentiment. Let's be clear on this, Abu, I have no use for the god portrayed by Islam. After we have both passed along, if you are into it, we can sit for a spell and chuckle over the absurdities found in the religions of the human animal.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

I'm not trying anything. I'm just presenting the word of Allah.

Correction, my friend, you are presenting the alleged word of god. It is unwholesome and a bit arrogant to suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

[34] Say: "Of your 'partners', can any originate creation and repeat it?" Say: "It is Allah Who originates creation and repeats it: then how are ye deluded away (from the truth)?"

The reality is that we are co-creators although I suspect, as of yet, you do not understand just how that is so.

Originally Posted by Abu Khalid

[35] Say: "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards Truth?" Say: "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards Truth. Is then He Who gives guidance to Truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? What then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"

As a matter of fact, we all guide each other, like bind folks in the dark. I am a bit puzzled about “he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided". IN theory, if one does not find guidance them self then technically they remain unguided (save by their own volition). Adding "unless he is guided" is nonsense. No doubt I am missing the "big picture" though.

(con't)