Tell Me Why? ...and whatnot... (Jesus Christ, ritual, crucifixion, blood)

[Saint Tigeress]

This is meant to be respectful. It could be a debate or discussion. I have been thinking about this a lot lately, so I thought I would talk about it here. This has probably already been brought up before, so I apologize if this is a repeat.


Why did Jesus die for the sins of the world?

Since according to the bulk of christianity when we sin without repententing we burn eternally in hell, if Jesus were to pay for the sins of the world wouldn't that entail him burning eternally as well?

How did he get to pay for everyones sins so quickly and be done with it, but if we end up paying for our own we have to burn for all eternity and/or be sperated from God forever?! Are we not special? Are we actually the red-headed stepchildren? Do the angels get to pay for thier own sins and be done with it in a decent amount of time? (Come on you know they aren't perfect)

Is it the fact that he made that sacrifice and we are refusing it that makes it so bad?

But that still brings me back around in a circle: Why did he die for that? Why couldn't each individual take responsibility, and individually pay for thier own sins?

I mean, why didn't we get a friggen choice? Why is that imposed on us? It is like a guilt trip. If I would have been given a choice I would have said, "No, don't do that! Are you friggen nuts?! We'll each all pay differently for our different transgressions. Just worry about your own for cryin out loud."

So I guess I just feel like the atonement is ridiculous. People never want to take responsibility and pay for what they do. They always look for an easy way out, and it seems like there is always this conditionality where in order for a person or civilation to grow and benefit another must be victimized or exploited for the others gain. And I truly see Jesus in that way as a victim, even if it is a willing victim. He got shafted so others could be lazy and benefit. I think christianity appeals to a lot of people for that reason. Some find the sacrificial message inspiring, and actually live a sacrificial life and try to correct thier crappiness. Others just exhale, wipe thier brow, and think... "well I'm glad that's taken care of." Then they go on being crappy and are comfortable knowing they won't recieve any kind of after-life retribution as long as they "try" to be better.

While I am on this crazy little rant asking all these crazy questions I might as well add two questions I saw somehere else. I don't think they ever got addressed and they have been on my mind lately too.

According to the Nicene Creed, if God and Jesus are like one being, or whatever, then, that would mean that when he sent Jesus to die for our sins, God essentially killed Himself... right?

And, according to christianity, and maybe other abrahamic variations, God said not to worship idols or other Gods and the Bible also states that He is jealous. How can God have a human emotion? Of all things jealosy? Isn't jealosy a negative quality? And, does this little combination in there somewhere imply that the Bible acknowledges the existance of other Gods, but tells us not to worship them because God is jealous??? (Forgive me I don't cite parts of the Bible that well and I don't have time to look it up.)

Don't massacre me, everyone. A soft paddling will do. I just needed to rant all that junk out and get some intellegent feedback on my thoughts/questions.

[Katzpur]

Here's how I see it, Tigress...

According to LDS doctrine, God will not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. What that means is that a person has to be perfect to return to His presence. It's not a matter of His weighing our good deeds against our bad deeds to see which way the scales will tip. We can't have a single blot on our record and be worthy of spending eternity with Him. On the surface, that seems not only a bit harsh, but entirely unreasonable, too. We can't possibly be perfect, so why even try?

That's where Christ's Atonement comes in. Allow me to explain how I see it working in each of our lives. Let's say you start college with the goal to finish up in a few years with a perfect 4.0 GPA. Everything goes along as planned for a period of time, but then you blow it. You get an A- instead of an A and your perfect GPA is shot all to hell. You can get straight A's for the rest of your college career, but you're never going to end up with a perfect 4.0. One mistake and your GPA will never be perfect again. Fortunately, getting to Heaven doesn't work quite the same way.

Let's say you were in miserable financial shape. You'd written a bunch of bad checks and your bank balance was in the red. You were thousands of dollars in debt and had no job. There was no way in the world for you to get out of the whole you'd dug for yourself. Then suppose you found yourself a man who had an absolutely unlimited resource of funds. You fell in love with him and got married. He suggested that you merge your two bank accounts into a joint account. It wouldn't matter how far in the hole you were because, as I already said, his funds were limitless. Once you joined forces with him, you would never be in debt again. He would assume all of your debt and pay off your debtors. The only thing he would ask of you is that you never stopped loving him and that you at least try to keep a handle on your spending in the future.

That's kind of the way I see the Atonement as working. We need someone who is perfect to pay the debt: Jesus Christ. Once we enter into a covenant relationship with Him, we are perfect, too. We're not perfect in and of ourselves, but we are perfect in Christ. Alone, we would still be in debt, miserably trying to get out of the hole we're in. With Him, we have not only climbed out of the hole but find ourselves on a mountain.

What is the sum of a finite but negative quantity and an infinite positive quantity? It's and infinite, positive quantity. Isn't that awesome?

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by Saint Tigeress

Since according to the bulk of christianity when we sin without repententing we burn eternally in hell, if Jesus were to pay for the sins of the world wouldn't that entail him burning eternally as well?

Nepotism.






It's a joke.....bad joke here people. Don't crucify me.

[Saint Tigeress]

Katzpur you are awsome. I luv you to death. Reading your post made me feel much better. That would be why I continue to love the LDS church so much. No matter how cynical or bitter I become, anything inspired by the LDS doctrine consistently has such a comforting quality to it, even if it doesn't answer all the questions.

[Darkness]

Lucifer sighed wearily. “There is so little Faith in this world. Such
a Void and an Emptiness. To fill this Void, people try to substitute logic
and reason, thinking that it might make up for their lack of Faith, but it
does them no good. Those things are nothing but false gods
masquerading as the Truth. It brings them no nearer, no closer to
happiness. But foolishly people are always trying to prove that God
exists to themselves. It shows at the core, a deep-rooted lack of Faith.
God is not a proposition, an axiom, or a mathematical hypothesis.
Father’s realm lies outside of the reaches of logic, outside of the powers
of sensory perception. But if logic is what they want to worship, then let
them do so, but it is nothing more than a mental construct of their own
egos that they worship. Beware of your Pride, Astarte. Understand it.
Subdue it. I should know.”

Lucifer slowly drew another circle circumscribed within a circle
upon his maps, talking as he did so. “Did you know that I created logic,
Astarte? I created science. I created the arts and music. I created
wisdom and knowledge. Satan and Beelzebub pleaded with me to do
so, and I obliged them. Then Satan tempted you humans into partaking
of the Tree of Knowledge in order to muddle your minds, to lead you
astray. Ever since then, mankind has been caught in a perpetual cycle
of death, greed, and corruption—wandering after petty and useless
pursuits. Like wicked vines, they ensnare and entrap those in the
tangles of logic, reason, and self-ego. In pursuit of things ephemeral
and all things transient. What has all of this knowledge and wisdom
given you? Nothing but suffering. The more one increases his wisdom,
the more one increases his sorrow. It is all nothing but vanity. A chasing
after the wind.”

[Scuba Pete]

It's like light living with a shadow: it's just not possible. Jesus allows us to be light again.

[Saint Tigeress]

Darkness, thank you for reminding me how bad-*** that book is.

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

It's like light living with a shadow: it's just not possible. Jesus allows us to be light again.

We will never ever be able to live without shadow in the world, neither spiritually or physically. For one, without shadow there would be endless sunlight and well... I am sure there would be some kind of enviromental/ psychological negative effects. We could not live without evil becuase then we would not recognize good, and we would not have the free will to choose what is good or right. We cannot eliminate all that is bad or evil about ourselves because it is in our nature in varying amounts. Why did we need someone to be killed and tortured in order for us to maximize the light that we have? Why, of all things, is it a message of crucifixion that inspires people to maximize thier light? Well, I guess I do understand. But in some churches why is the cross revered, and theatrical like shows done that show all the blood and killing and torture? Why is the gore and death so focused on instead of His life, and the message behind His sacrifice?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Saint Tigeress

Why did Jesus die for the sins of the world?

Speaking as strictly non-Christian and someone who only just found a "meaning" to support this image in the last couple of years, here on this forum, this is what I've come to think (subject to impending improved understanding).

First, the symbolism: "Jesus" before his death is us, each and everyone of us, mankind, humans, conscious beings experiencing and (more importantly) participating in the world around us. Jesus is the (personal) "I am" in "I AM" (everything).

"Sin" is conscious existence. This is something that I intuited before I even came to RF: I saw "sin" being used in debate and discussion as synonymous for "living", for "being alive", for bothering to exist in this existence, as we do; and for all the things we do while we're "here". Now, though, the idea has been brought to another level of understanding: I see "sin" as the illusion of existence, such as the "samsara" of Hinduism and Buddhism that is lived through again and again through reincarnation, and it is through discarding the "cloak" of believing the illusion to be the primary existence that one is "saved".

In Jesus's "death" he has discarding the cloak of illusion that is "sinful" existence, to live in a more "proper" relationship with the world around us. This is reflected in the symbol of the cross, which is two "dimensions" of existence that are perpendicular to each other; sort of like lateral thinking.

Then "Jesus" after his death is us, each and every one of us, with the proper relationship to the world, or the potential for it that lies in each of us if we attain that understanding of the world. Substituting "God" for "the world" is optional.

So the reason Jesus "had to die" is to offer up an image of this proper relationship.