Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by BalanceFx

Agree. I don't believe in the fantastical tales in the bible either.



I know you believe its true... I don't question your belief or your right to proclaim it just don't tell me you know its true when there is no evidence to support such a claim. Its not dishonest to proclaim your belief... it is dishonest to claim something as scientific and historical when there is no evidence to support this claim. Even if you believe it. If you want to be honest you will say you have faith that it is true, or you know it in your heart, or you really believe it. To say you know it as fact or as something any rational person should accept is dishonest and insulting. I know not all religious people do it, nor am I catering that statement towards LDS exclusively.

I am also not denying that some people think religion has been a powerful guiding force for their lives and appreciate being part of that community. You sound like your happy as an LDS. Yet there are things I can not morally say I support or advocate and I stated some of those items in my last post.

I guess there is a difference between having a duty to your fellow humans and to humanity and having a duty to a god. I'm not saying you can't have both but there is a subtle problem perhaps. Religion, in general not JUST LDS, has been used to promote a stagnate state of lets maintain what we have and our beliefs. And argubly they cant even do that as their beliefs are always then used to justify this or that one year and then the next not this or that but whatever. It seems to prevent us or not prevent... but hinder... us on an intellectual level. I mean there are some very intelligent people arguing and debating pointless and theological myths for which there are no solutions. Those people could be debating, arguing for humanities sake. This is part of what hitchens goes into for morals and the neccesity of atheism which is interesting but I think it also has this other side of the coin. Another way religion has historically stunted the growth if intellectuals is through censorship, book banning and of a general nature to silence anyone who disagrees. I think this is less now a days but in LDS they preach and encourage you not to watch movies that are Rated R as I argued earler, I disagree with this. On a number of levels for a number of reasons I think its just a very bad and disheartening practice.

I think you could also argue it hinders us on a moral level. Look at how immaculate these churches are and how much wealth is drained into the church... There is a moral obligation to use that wealth not for ivory walls and gold crosses but to help those in need. I'm still thinking about that argument but I think there is a point to be made there. There is also this view of let gods will happen and that has an overall tendency of making people feel as if they can't enact change. If they just settle now then they will be rewarded later.

I think this is all a sidetracked philosphical discussion really. The question of how Joe could have written the BoM and I would argue for a realistic answer that could not include angels or gods as these are just unproven myth and likely did not include gold plates as these have never been found and can not be independently verified. There is also the question of whether or not Joe could have even translated the text.

Further the content is fantastical with clear false hoods (As pointed out and which I am sure you are familiar with but have somehow rationalized away) and of the things that might be true there is no archelogical evidence for the realistic items and of course no conclusive evidence for any super-natural conclusions.

Balance, the more I read your post, the more I see you don't know us at all.
The gospel is very true, and very real to me. Just as my love for my husband is real, which I have absolutely no way of proving to you. Discovering truth in a theology is much more than some feeling or message from God. It's day by day, year in and year out of living it's precepts. Then seeing for one's self that it works. It has made my life far better than it would have been. The extent of the blessings and fruits of living the gospel are immeasurable. I see them daily.

Yes, our church spends money on its buildings. But it also spends a tremendous amount of money helping the poor and needy. I doubt any other religion surpasses us in this. The LDS welfare program is vast and has been commended by several presidents of our country.

As far as R rated movies, we are counseled to be careful in what we choose to watch, because what goes into one's mind, does not come out. We are taught to govern our thoughts as well as our actions, and our thoughts are usually a product of what we feed them. There is plenty to learn, see, and enjoy in this world, without viewing rampant sex and violence, which is abhorrant to God.

Much damage has been done in the world by some organized religions, but don't make the assumption that this includes all religions. God's true religion, as organized by Christ, has brought blessings to millions upon millions. And until you've lived it, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by Starfish

Balance, the more I read your post, the more I see you don't know us at all.
The gospel is very true, and very real to me. Just as my love for my husband is real, which I have absolutely no way of proving to you. Discovering truth in a theology is much more than some feeling or message from God. It's day by day, year in and year out of living it's precepts. Then seeing for one's self that it works. It has made my life far better than it would have been. The extent of the blessings and fruits of living the gospel are immeasurable. I see them daily.

I am friends with many people like you and am a natural at reading people. I am glad mormonism has brought such joy to your life. Go with god.

Originally Posted by Starfish

Yes, our church spends money on its buildings. But it also spends a tremendous amount of money helping the poor and needy. I doubt any other religion surpasses us in this. The LDS welfare program is vast and has been commended by several presidents of our country.

I never said you didn't. Atheists, pantheists and theists of other religions are all helping those in need.

Originally Posted by Starfish

As far as R rated movies, we are counseled to be careful in what we choose to watch, because what goes into one's mind, does not come out. We are taught to govern our thoughts as well as our actions, and our thoughts are usually a product of what we feed them. There is plenty to learn, see, and enjoy in this world, without viewing rampant sex and violence, which is abhorrant to God.

When trying to argue with an atheist its best not justify your opinion by the only thing being an atheist means they dont believe in. God is a fairy tale. There is no more proof that he is not that there is that he exists. GIGO is a good argument but censorship is and always has been bad. I can see you don't agree and we can disagree but I disagree on many levels and it makes me sad.

Originally Posted by Starfish

Much damage has been done in the world by some organized religions, but don't make the assumption that this includes all religions. God's true religion, as organized by Christ, has brought blessings to millions upon millions. Any until you've lived it, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Completely off track...My conclusion is simpler. If you want to debate mormonism with me I think it would be courteous of us to start another thread as it has nothing to do with this thread.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by BalanceFx

To say you know it as fact or as something any rational person should accept is dishonest and insulting.

Is it dishonest and insulting when I say I love my fiancee? After all, there is no way I can absolutely prove it as a fact.

Religion, in general not JUST LDS, has been used to promote a stagnate state of lets maintain what we have and our beliefs. And argubly they cant even do that as their beliefs are always then used to justify this or that one year and then the next not this or that but whatever. It seems to prevent us or not prevent... but hinder... us on an intellectual level.

Did you know that one of only two things our Church believes it is ok for members to go into debt for is a college education? You may have a point for some religions in history suppressing certain intellectual advancements, but I fail to see how it can have any bearing on todays religions. Even when new ideas were suppressed in history, it was not as if they were thinking "this could lead to a whole new intellectual revolution, we can not let that happen!". The ideas were usually suppressed because they went against common perceptions of the world.

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by Apex

Is it dishonest and insulting when I say I love my fiancee? After all, there is no way I can absolutely prove it as a fact.

No but is dishonest to make this comparison. Argubly we could prove that do in fact love your fiance. We could never prove the existance of god.

Originally Posted by Apex

Did you know that one of only two things our Church believes it is ok for members to go into debt for is a college education? You may have a point for some religions in history suppressing certain intellectual advancements, but I fail to see how it can have any bearing on todays religions. Even when new ideas were suppressed in history, it was not as if they were thinking "this could lead to a whole new intellectual revolution, we can not let that happen!". The ideas were usually suppressed because they went against common perceptions of the world.

I think you understand some of what I am saying but to clairfy its not that it is their goal to supress an intellectual revolution it is just a result of them censoring or performing thought police functions.

Today's religion still seek to ban books, theories, pictures for various reasons. I pointed to an example in LDS you can relate to but probably cant see the harm of the theory. You can only see the supposed good. I recently posted a video of a mormon teaching and he referenced is it ok to watch the Titanic? Did you happen to catch that?

I'm not a huge fan of the movie but it was emotional especially for my better half. It evoked a powerful understanding and sympathy for the people that were on that boat and it inspired us to learn a whole lot more about the titanic then most people really would have cared to learn. I'm not arguing that had you not seen it you wouldn't be so inspired nor am I implying that not being inspired to study something is the only harm such censorship could do. I'm citing a simple example I hope you can relate to.

I would advocate you to study censorship and the affect it has had and see if it relates to you at all. I'm not going to insinuate that because you are asked to be conscious of what movies you do and do not see that it affects you in any way but I would not advocate you avoid seeing anything that strikes your interest. I think anyone who tells you that you as an adult should or should not see a movie is morally wrong.

The argument that if you see something bad and thus will become bad is silly. I think they try a similar argument every few years with gun control.

[Apex]

Originally Posted by BalanceFx

No but is dishonest to make this comparison. Argubly we could prove that do in fact love your fiance. We could never prove the existance of god.

You could prove that I do love her? How? I would argue that it is something only I could ever know to be true or not. I just can't understand how you can consider someone as dishonest and disgusting just because they say they know God exists or they try to share this belief with others (as long as they never try to force these beliefs upon others). I can only see your view as valid for those who are trying to get religious beliefs taught in the class room as fact.

I think you understand some of what I am saying but to clairfy its not that it is their goal to supress an intellectual revolution it is just a result of them censoring or performing thought police functions.

I agree.

Today's religion still seek to ban books, theories, pictures for various reasons.

And I do not agree with them.

I pointed to an example in LDS you can relate to but probably cant see the harm of the theory. You can only see the supposed good. I recently posted a video of a mormon teaching and he referenced is it ok to watch the Titanic? Did you happen to catch that?

You would have a point if the Church was actively trying to force members to not watch them, or, trying to ban this material. If this were the case, I would be on your side. All the Church does is advise members they may wish to use discretion when it comes to certain material but the final choice is left to the individual.

I'm not a huge fan of the movie but it was emotional especially for my better half. It evoked a powerful understanding and sympathy for the people that were on that boat and it inspired us to learn a whole lot more about the titanic then most people really would have cared to learn. I'm not arguing that had you not seen it you wouldn't be so inspired nor am I implying that not being inspired to study something is the only harm such censorship could do. I'm citing a simple example I hope you can relate to.

I saw the movie, the only part I liked was when the ship broke in half. That was some awesome special effects.

I would advocate you to study censorship and the affect it has had and see if it relates to you at all. I'm not going to insinuate that because you are asked to be conscious of what movies you do and do not see that it affects you in any way but I would not advocate you avoid seeing anything that strikes your interest. I think anyone who tells you that you as an adult should or should not see a movie is morally wrong.

I think it is dishonest to use "censorship" to describe what the Church is doing. Again, you would be correct if they were making an active effort to force members not to view certain material. All they are doing is advising.

The argument that if you see something bad and thus will become bad is silly. I think they try a similar argument every few years with gun control.

I agree.