Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

I'm not responding because it's an either-or fallacy. I already said it didn't prove anything conclusively. It just makes a forgery slightly less likely.

Note that it's not enough to find all 20 elements in a book, you have to find them in a farewell speech, and some of them in a specific order. The chances of doing that randomly are 20 factorial, or pretty slim.

Its your argument! 3 times... I will not pose the question again. Why do you even keep bringing it up?

Its been pointed out that a good search leads you to your posts here... a more extensive google search also turns up the original article.... And some other texts I found which basically say... Huh?

I really dont get what your saying. It definitely does not prove that Joe couldnt have wrote it. It is quite possible that a 1000 years or so after something happens that someone might know about it.

Honestly Deepshadow... I dont care that you dislike me and think Im a stubborn idiot... I like you. You stand by your faith. You defend it and your quite intelligent. But you dont respect me to give me an answer.

Im leaning back towards you have faith and nothing more. Your 50 common names and 20 abstract similarties between the BoM and another religious text... written in hebrew no less... doesnt change that for me... Does it for you?

[DeepShadow]

I've said before, this has nothing to do with my testimony. At all. Why can't you believe that? Why do you insist on making this about my belief that the Book of Mormon is the word of God?

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

Of course, that chance has to then be multiplies by the chance of pulling 50+ appropriate names out of thin air, and the chance of anticipating a new form of writing that will be discovered afterwards--plates, that is. Not to mention the chance of composing a megachiasmus by sheer accident.

Note that each of these could be considered a scientific prediction, which would give Joseph a remarkable track record, if he was just guessing. I mean, who would have predicted that the people of America had built roads and used cement?

But there werent 50 names... Unless we make the same assumptions the original article your arguing makes. And megachiasmus? Then roads and cement eh?

Listen... Your not even being honest here. State your arguments correctly with references and as your doing that you will see what other non LDS people are going to think.

You have faith. There is not a scientific argument here.

As I stated before... What your trying to conclude here can be disproven by no archelogical evidence. You say you can talk to god and he talks to you. There is no evidence for god let alone that he talks to people.

If god speaks to you... then you should have something to contradict that other then... he speaks to me... therefore I know.

Great. That justifies it to you.

At the end of this conversation and debate you have faith. BYU might teach you that you have more then that... but its a MORMON college, what would you expect it to do? Many mormons who go there meet their significant other there and get sealed! (Provided their not gay.)

Look. I dont agree with the churches stance on Gays, the secrecy of the temple, the prophet status of Joe, the gold plates, the angels or gods... Im an atheist. And more that that Im a huge sagan fan and do not believe in the supernatural.

You say your not arguing for a supernatural explanation for the writing of the BoM... So we agree. There are lots of easy, realistic and normal ways Joe could have written the BoM and we don't need the supernatural in this picture. The BoM can still be a beutiful and powerful well written book that only needed a few 1000 edits to be read today and peddled door to door. Right?

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by BalanceFx

Its your argument! 3 times... I will not pose the question again. Why do you even keep bringing it up?

Because it must be dealt with by any logical attempt to answer the OP. Your charming little anecdote about Merl does indeed deal with it, but you have already admitted that you have no proof.

a more extensive google search also turns up the original article.... And some other texts I found which basically say... Huh?

Then post them!

I really dont get what your saying. It definitely does not prove that Joe couldnt have wrote it. It is quite possible that a 1000 years or so after something happens that someone might know about it.

Of cousrse it's possible! 20 factorial yields a chance slightly smaller than a one in ten billion chance, about as unlikely as an angel giving you directions to buried treasure.

Honestly Deepshadow... I dont care that you dislike me and think Im a stubborn idiot... I like you. You stand by your faith. You defend it and your quite intelligent. But you dont respect me to give me an answer.

I'm trying to give you one, but you insist on talking about "proof" without following the rules of burden of proof. You talk about what is real and what is rational without subjecting yourself to the rules of logic. Yes, I am frustrated with you, but I would have put you on my ignore list a long time ago if I didn't like you a little, too.

You called it a threat when I said I'd put you on my ignore list, and I suppose you were right. I didn't mean it that way; I was just trying to say that I was tired of teaching you the rules of logic and argument.

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by BalanceFx

At the end of this conversation and debate you have faith. BYU might teach you that you have more then that... but its a MORMON college, what would you expect it to do?

When have I EVER cited BYU as a source in this thread?!

You say your not arguing for a supernatural explanation for the writing of the BoM... So we agree. There are lots of easy, realistic and normal ways Joe could have written the BoM and we don't need the supernatural in this picture.

That's not what I'm saying!! For the love of pete, you still don't get it! The evidence I'm offering is to support the idea tha tthe Book of Mormon was translated from Hebrew documents--that it was NOT a forgery by Smith or any 19th Century person. There are other scenarios that fit the data--time travel, astronomical chance, etc--but all of them are equally unlikely.

[DeepShadow]

You keep saying "easy and realistic" as if your Merl scenario was actually logical. The chances of Joseph getting the information he needed to write this book--without any trace of evidence left behind--are billions to one!

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

The evidence I'm offering is to support the idea tha tthe Book of Mormon was translated from Hebrew documents

It is quite possible that there were hebrew documents used as a souce and inspiration for Joe. In my example Merl had bought some egyptian texts which made more sense to me... but its equally likely that joe had read some other stories by Reigneil who had based much of her work on ancient hebrew documents.

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

--that it was NOT a forgery by Smith or any 19th Century person.

This is vague... what do you mean by not a forgery... and what does a 19th century person have to do with it?