Please Explain how Joseph Smith could have possibly authored the Book of Mormon.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

Did their discussion of Joseph's revelation include his vision of God and Jesus Christ?

surprisingly, no. they talked about the doctrine of families living eternally in heaven, God's sending Joseph Smith to re-show the true way, and to show that He still speaks to us even today, and they talked about the 'many confusing denominations' and how the LDS church is different.

and truly, talking about one man's vision of God and Jesus (...) is not the same as sharing the specific teachings, words, miracles, and love of Jesus. Joseph Smith still comes first in the conversation, not Christ.

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by spiritually inclined

There are too many questions, too many holes in this story, too many prejudices of Joseph Smith's culture reflected in the Book of Mormon, such as racism.

Was racism strictly a prejudice of Joseph's culture? I doubt it. There's plenty of evidence of racism in the Bible, and plenty more showing how the ideas of "dark" and "light" were around in Jerusalem at Lehi's time. I'm not surprised at all that many Nephites were racist.

What is all this about beautiful, fair white skin and evil, vile, dark people? It's racism, that's what it is.

Of course it is! Why is that even a question?! The question we ought to be asking is, why is the racism there? Is it a reflection of the beliefs of the Nephites, or is it a doctrinal manifesto of how races should relate?

I came across some of the above scriptures in my own reading of the Book of Mormon.

Did you come across any of the following:

2 Ne. 26: 33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

Funny how you quote Jacob but miss the prior verses taht specifically say the Nephites themselves were racist, and that God condemned them for it:

5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.


Or how about the most righteous people in the book--the People of Ammon--being dark-skinned? While the most evil in the book--the Gadianton Robbers--are light-skinned? If the book is so racist, what's with the reversal?

I'm just not impressed enough to take this as the word of God, just as I am not impressed by the Qu'raan, even if Muhummad did somehow manage to write it.

That's too bad. Why do you think you only saw the racist and not the anti-racist?

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by ayani

surprisingly, no. they talked about the doctrine of families living eternally in heaven, God's sending Joseph Smith to re-show the true way, and to show that He still speaks to us even today, and they talked about the 'many confusing denominations' and how the LDS church is different.

That's too bad. They aren't following the discussion format. I wonder why.

and truly, talking about one man's vision of God and Jesus (...) is not the same as sharing the specific teachings, words, miracles, and love of Jesus. Joseph Smith still comes first in the conversation, not Christ.

That's only assuming said vision is not part of Jesus's work and miracles, or part of His love toward mankind. If it is, then sharing the vision is part of sharing the love of Christ.

[Red Pill]

Originally Posted by DeepShadow

So good that it's completely undetectable.

Really? Is this system codified somewhere? Are there emotional manipulation techniques in the handbooks, or the teacher manuals?


Which is why there are so many Mormon scientists. Right.

I don't suppose you have a source for ANY of these statements?

When asking members to watch for those non member friends and relatives that are going through extreme emotional events in their lives, such as births, deaths, bankruptcy, divorce, marriage etc- and then telling the members to approach those people during that time was a common tool as of 3 years ago. Looking for converts at emotionally charged times in their lives, trying to persuade them that the answers to all the problems are in one spot... that is manipulative. That was in instructional videos and pamphlets for member missionary work. I saw the video many times, and had the pamphlet

When telling women not to temple divorce their husbands because the children will be sealed to him or him and his new wife- that is emotional manipulation. I was RS president a couple times, ward and stake. This happened a lot.

Telling men to tow the line or in heaven their wive and children will be given to another man.. manipulative.

When telling young men to go on a mission and sacrifice scholorships because if they do and are true blue on the mission, they will get a beautiful wife and live happily ever after- manipulative. My son got this advise, he went. His friends got the same advise. Some went, some didn't.

Calling tithe paying Fire Insurance because if you pay you will avoid Hell, same thing.

How about all those emotionally charged ads on TV?

This is a small sampling. I can not post links yet. I threw all my books, handbooks, flyers, hand out cards and everything else I had out when I resigned.
But anyone who has been in for even a small amount of time has seen this kind of behavior.

There are Mormons in every field. Some people can compartmentalize and not reconcile conflicting data. Some people don't care, it works for them. I have no problem with mormons who want to believe, or any other religious believers. The poster was confused by his family ignoring common sense. I gave the poster my view, based on first hand information.

After 30 years of watching it at work in the church, I know manipulation when I see it.

Of course, the Mormon Church is not alone in this, most religions use manipulation and guilt. It works well. I believe most of these folks think they are doing a good thing- saving souls and all. I know I was sincere, and not out to trick anyone. I was just following the handbooks and other instruction I rec'd. I thought I was doing a good thing.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by Red Pill

LDS Inc has a pretty good system down to get followers and converts to just trust the words of their "prophet".

Really?
Please be so kind as to show us this system

Originally Posted by Red Pill

The system includes a great deal of emotional maniputlation.

Again, really?
Well then they LDS I have talked to must not have been following your alleged system.
Please be so kind as to support this claim, because my personal experiences with the LDS says you are wrong.

Originally Posted by Red Pill

And really, if some one else has all the answers and you don't have to worry about anything just do what you are told and you get the greatest reward anyone could imagine... well that is a pretty good draw if one is inclined to magical thinking.

What are you talking about here?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by gnostic

I supposed it really depends on how you look at it.

Evidently so. How do you see it as convenient for us? I'm truly baffled by that statement.

Actually, I would have welcomed something that's real.

Why? You'd have just had an explanation for their existance that ran contrary to Joseph Smith's story anyway.

The whole "gold plates" thing could have been good proof, if it did exist, not just for the witnesses, but for everyone else. It would have answered the question of "Did Joseph Smith really translated from the gold plates? And if so, did he translated them accurately?"

I don't this explanation isn't going to fly with you, but I'm going to give it anyway. When Jesus appeared to His Apostles immediately after His resurrection, Thomas wasn't with the others and didn't witness the wounds in the Savior's hands. It was not until later on that He saw them for himself and acknowledged the risen Christ. Jesus responded by saying, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." Of course it's easy to believe something for which we have physical proof, but for some reasons that's not the way God works.

The fact that we no longer have the plates is immaterial as far as I'm concerned. What is interesting to me is this: Joseph Smith described the record he translated as being inscribed on metal plates which had the appearance of gold. When he first saw them, they were in a stone box buried near his home. Now, in 1830, the very idea of an ancient record having been written on golden plates and stored in a stone box was positively preposterous. After all, nothing of this sort had ever been discovered by archeologists at that time. Joseph was ridiculed unmercifully for making such a claim, but never recanted his story. Well, as fate would have it, about 100 years later, a number of such records began to turn up in places throughout the world. Ancient histories, etc. inscribed on metal plates, some of them even made of gold. And, just to make matters more interesting, many had been stored in stone boxes just like the one Joseph Smith claimed to have. Several of these ancient records are now on display at museums in various cities worldwide. Even more intriguing is this: Joseph claimed he was not given access to roughly two-thirds of the plates in his posession, as they appeared to be sealed shut. Some of the recent archeological find include "sealed" plates, much like those Joseph described. Does any of this prove that Joseph really did translate an ancient record written on gold plates? Of course not. But it certainly does put his description of the places and the means by which they had been stored on a solid foundation with other ancient practices. You want proof that the golden plates existed. There isn't any. But how did Joseph Smith know that this method of record-keeping was common among ancient people -- when NOBODY ELSE DID? A lucky guess perhaps.

My sister and her family are Mormons too.

Really? This is the first I've seen you mention that.

For me, I just can't understand how people can follow just trusting the "words" of prophet without more substance than just belief and faith.

Well, I guess you're a little bit like Thomas, then.