Proselytism and Atheism (Jesus, follower, choice, experience, atheist)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by mball1297

Yes, there's a difference in the methods, but there is no difference in the desire to force religious beliefs on someone else. The point is that, if you believe that abortion is wrong because of your religion, then don't do it, but don't try to make me not do it even if I don't share your religious beliefs. It's not a matter of how they go about it, it's the idea of doing it. Of course your first case is more tolerable, but that doesn't make it acceptable.

The pro-lifers don't think that abortion is wrong the way that some might think that drinking alcohol is wrong. If that were the case then your argument would fly. They think that it is murder. I don't. But if I did think that it was legally-sanctioned murder, I would be as opposed to it as I am against capital punishment.

You're saying that they can't impose their religious beliefs. If we were talking about instituting mandatory school prayers or putting "In God We Trust" on our money or banning alcohol sales on Sundays, I am in complete agreement with you. But we are talking about abortion - something that is not in and of itself religious. In that case, how they came about their beliefs, whether it's by their religion or not, is irrelevant. The fact is that they have opinions on the matter, based on what they feel is right, as do you and I. They have the right to vote accordingly.

I will do what I can to vote, educate, advocate, and otherwise oppose them, but I absolutely recognize their right to do the very same thing that I am doing - acting on conscience.

[Charity]

Originally Posted by mball1297

We don't have a monopoly, but it is a bigger part of being an atheist than being a member of some of the biggest religions. For instance, Christianity promotes belief before reason. You're generally expected to believe in God, and then He will show himself to you. That is not critical thinking or reasonable.

Mball I have to say my experience came with God before I ever read or knew the Bible. My Biblical knowledge only confirmed what I already knew to be true. This happened when I was a child, and my parents were not Christians so I had no Bible doctrine instilled in me. So in my case God was revealed to me then I began to believe....I know that you and a lot of people are skeptical of this type of experience, but it happened to me. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't mean it didn't happen..... Something happened in your lives (atheists) that make you unbelievers , and something happened in my life that made me believe... When I first came on this forum, I thought I had to try and make everyone believe like me, but I have learned that it is not possible......I have learned to accept each one like you are. I may joke with you or give you a rough time but I never want to try to push my religion on you.

Charity

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Charity

Mball I have to say my experience came with God before I ever read or knew the Bible. My Biblical knowledge only confirmed what I already knew to be true. This happened when I was a child, and my parents were not Christians so I had no Bible doctrine instilled in me. So in my case God was revealed to me then I began to believe....I know that you and a lot of people are skeptical of this type of experience, but it happened to me. The fact that you don't believe it doesn't mean it didn't happen..... Something happened in your lives (atheists) that make you unbelievers , and something happened in my life that made me believe... When I first came on this forum, I thought I had to try and make everyone believe like me, but I have learned that it is not possible......I have learned to accept each one like you are. I may joke with you or give you a rough time but I never want to try to push my religion on you.

Charity

And that's fine. I understand people have experiences like that. I'm still skeptical of them, but something like that wouldn't be included in my previous statement. The general idea is to believe so that you may see, but, of course, that's not always the way it happens.

[Autodidact]

What's really irritating is when atheists ring my doorbell and ask to come in and talk to me about how there is no God.
Oh yeah, and that one atheist who stands on a corner downtown and preaches at everyone going by about how God doesn't exist.
Let's not even get into those pairs of young male atheists riding around on bicycles with backpacks trying to convert everyone to atheism--it's just too weird.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

What's really irritating is when atheists ring my doorbell and ask to come in and talk to me about how there is no God.
Oh yeah, and that one atheist who stands on a corner downtown and preaches at everyone going by about how God doesn't exist.
Let's not even get into those pairs of young male atheists riding around on bicycles with backpacks trying to convert everyone to atheism--it's just too weird.

What's really irritating is when atheists pop into a thread that is NOT about the existence of God and feel obligated to inform us that there is no God.
Oh yeah, and that (more than) one atheist who makes thread after thread attacking different points theism. If we were to tally those and compare them to the number of threads on RF that proclaim "Jesus is the way," I wonder which would win?

The guy on the sidewalk is a loon. But honestly, I get accosted by Greenpeace activists on the sidewalk more often than I do Christian proselytizers.

The doorbell ringing Christians are probably Jehovah's Witnesses. The guys on bicycles are probably Mormons. Both have been nothing but polite to me when I've encountered them, which is really not that often. How often do they approach you?

Whereas practically every day that I'm on RF there is some atheist telling me that there is no God and that people who believe in God are irrational/unable to think for themselves. Me thinks proselytizing atheists just use a different medium than doorbells and sidewalks.

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I believe that the reason why there is conflict between religions is because religions tend to be proselytising. Some Christians are not just happy being Christian, they want you to be a Christian too. Of course that means trouble if you happen to be a Muslim and would quite like for them to check out the Koran.

You can see this in real life. Go along to a place of worship that is big on proselytism and then go along to a place of worship that is big on universalism. Which one did you feel more comfortable in? Which place do you feel like you could more easily begin friendships and make ties with the people who go their?

So taking that into consideration, it seems to me that the latest trend within atheism is exactly the wrong path to take. Many atheists have decided that it is not okay to just live their lives as an atheist, they want you to be an atheist too. A world without religion would be a better place, they claim. When people think of atheism, they think of that irritating person who tells them how irrational and stupid they are for believing in God.

Wiccans and Quakers don't start wars because they believe in live and let live. Why haven't we learned from the examples of the religions with whom we do not find ourselves in conflict with? Why in attempting to assert ourselves against proselytism have we turned into proselytisers?

I hold to this theory that if Quakers, Wiccans, and any other religious belief whose adherents are relatively small and do not predominate the political and social structure of a nation would exhibit the same qualities we see within the larger religions if they were to gain a certain level of population and come to dominate the political, social and ethnic structure of a single nation. This says nothing about the inherit value of any religion but that the factor of human nature and population would steamroll the qualitative effect any one religion could exert over a population. It happened to Christianity.

Many atheists look at the question this way. What does any religion offer us that human beings cannot achieve without it? I think it's an important question. And for the world in which cultures will only continue to struggle against each other, especially among rising ethnonational ideals, it may be that breaking down what is viewed as the most distinctive cultural wall would be the best way towards bridging all gaps between cultures.

I don't agree. The atheists you refer to who aggressively seek out and attack theists are working out of spite and often hold a misguided concept of history.

Of course, I also do not believe it is just ok to live my life as an atheist. Why? There are religious beliefs that are outright dangerous. Many beliefs are...some of them happen to be spiritual in nature. When confronted with these beliefs it would be irresponsible to not challenge the belief. We cannot live in a world where we keep our ideals to ourselves. It makes it far too easy for those who would oppress to reign.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by gnomon

I hold to this theory that if Quakers, Wiccans, and any other religious belief whose adherents are relatively small and do not predominate the political and social structure of a nation would exhibit the same qualities we see within the larger religions if they were to gain a certain level of population and come to dominate the political, social and ethnic structure of a single nation. This says nothing about the inherit value of any religion but that the factor of human nature and population would steamroll the qualitative effect any one religion could exert over a population. It happened to Christianity.

Many atheists look at the question this way. What does any religion offer us that human beings cannot achieve without it? I think it's an important question. And for the world in which cultures will only continue to struggle against each other, especially among rising ethnonational ideals, it may be that breaking down what is viewed as the most distinctive cultural wall would be the best way towards bridging all gaps between cultures.

I don't agree. The atheists you refer to who aggressively seek out and attack theists are working out of spite and often hold a misguided concept of history.

Of course, I also do not believe it is just ok to live my life as an atheist. Why? There are religious beliefs that are outright dangerous. Many beliefs are...some of them happen to be spiritual in nature. When confronted with these beliefs it would be irresponsible to not challenge the belief. We cannot live in a world where we keep our ideals to ourselves. It makes it far too easy for those who would oppress to reign.

Agree on all counts. It's human nature to want to exercise power over others if one can. We must resist. There are a few annoying proselytizing atheists who go out of their way to argue with and condescend toward theists, and it's spiteful. But all atheists should be able to live their lives fully expressing their own beliefs and values in public life, and if they are confronted with a belief that they think is harmful, they have both the right and the duty to say so.


(And before any proselytizing atheist tries to say it, no, a belief in God is not inherently harmful. Grow up.)