The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. (Deists, America)

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by lilithu

That is a matter of debate. What is not up for debate is whether Jefferson believed that Jesus was God. He did not. Jefferson described Jesus as:

"a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law."

Or if that isn't convincing enough, there's this:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Jefferson had the utmost respect for Jesus as a human teacher and reformer. That's how I see Jesus too. And surprise, surprise, I'm a Unitarian.


When the Unitarians broke from the Congregationalists, they still considered themselves Christian, even tho they rejected the divinity of Christ. There are Unitarians in Europe right now who consider themselves Christian even tho they reject the divinity of Christ. You can argue with them about whether or not they are actually Christian. But the fact remains there were and are people who calls themselves Christian who reject the divinity of Christ. Adams was one of them.

Actually, I don't really care if you claim that both Adams and Jefferson were Christian, because they've made that claim themselves at times. But what you cannot do is say they believed that Jesus is God. They did not.

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by Starfish

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

Yet being christians they sought to create a country that was more then just christian. A place where freedom meant freedom for everyone and not just the christians.

Tolerance and respect for all religious and no religion shall every rule the governement or vice versa.

Wise men.

[Draka]

Originally Posted by Starfish

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

I could call myself a Christian and start up my own forum...would that make it a Christian forum...nope...not at all. They could call themselves Trampolinists, doesn't mean that the basis of a country would have anything to do with trampolines now would it?

[logician]

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by logician

Unfortunately, in the U.S. Congress, if you dare mention you don't believe in god, they'd probably haul you away in a paddy wagon. So much for religious tolerance.

Last time I looked this was a country where anyone eligible to vote could vote for the candidate of their choice. It just so happens that the voters prefer candidates with a religious faith. Strangely, so did the founders of this country.

I'm also still waiting for you to name these "ultraconservative and ultrareligious" republicans you refer to. If you can't then perhaps you want to retract that absurd statement.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by logician

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

If you're referring to Jefferson and Adams; did you read their quotes?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by logician

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

Man, your arguments are just so well reasoned and grounded in reality. If you'd actually read the quotes, yes they did call themselves Christians. Adams considered himself a Christian, even tho he didn't believe that Jesus was God. And Jefferson at various times lambasted Christianity and at other times claimed that he was the true Christian, (which was not contradictory - just different sides of the argument).

The argument you should be making, if you indeed were capable of logic, is that what they meant by Christian is very different than what people generally mean by Christian, and therefore it would be misleading and disingenuous to call them Christian.

[crystalonyx]

Originally Posted by lilithu

The argument you should be making, if you indeed were capable of logic, is that what they meant by Christian is very different than what people generally mean by Christian, and therefore it would be misleading and disingenuous to call them Christian.

You are the one who is illogical, their definition of Chrisitanity was no different than ours, their attitude towards it, however, was much different.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by crystalonyx

You are the one who is illogical, their definition of Chrisitanity was no different than ours, their attitude towards it, however, was much different.

Really.... then why would they both say at various times that they were Christian??