The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. (Deists, America)

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by mball1297

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. The point is that the Founding Fathers were at least nominally Christian. That means that they allowed themselves to be seen as Christian, but didn't really believe in Christianity. This would have been more for the sake of appearances than anything else. They were in fact Christians in name only. That is supported by them, including Jefferson, giong to church. You're right that Jefferson going to church would mean no more than you going to church. That's the point. He only did it to keep up airs, not because he believed it. We are not saying that they were Christians, we're saying that they pretended to be Christians.

When you say A is nominally, or in name only, B, it means that A is not actually B, but calls itself that.

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

Yes, but that's much too short a way of putting it.

Actually, I've tried saying this other places in this thread. Maybe if it gets said enough different ways, people will pick up on it.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by mball1297

That's what I'm saying, though. In this case I would consider myself agnostic. It seems to me that there's evidence that points to some of the Fathers being Christian, and to them not being Christian, and to them being outwardly Christian, etc. I don't have any strict conclusions about it, though.

If I seem to be arguing one way, it's mostly to make sure that particular viewpoint doesn't get lost and overlooked, not saying that it is the only way to look at it.

Well we disagree, but only nominally. I think we're saying pretty much the same thing here.... maybe. My point is that the Founding Fathers did not all think as one. They were different, thoughtful people with different points of view on this.

Actually, the editor-in-Chief of BeliefNet recently made a stir in UU circles when he described our Founding Fathers as "militant Unitarians."

Originally Posted by Steven Waldman

As for their religious beliefs, someone in the comment thread said I was being incoherent or contradictory by saying the Big Five (Franklin, Adams, Jefferson, Washington & Madison) were neither Deists nor orthodox Christians. Again, we’re viewing this through a somewhat warped lens. “Deist” and “Orthodox Christian” were not the only two spiritual choices. For one thing, each Founder was slightly different from each other, and changed throughout their lives. But if I had to pick a religion, I’d say they were sort of militant Unitarians. In other words, they had rejected or become uncomfortable with key parts of Christian doctrine and institutional behavior but they did believe in an active God, who intervened in their lives and the lives of the nation.

Originally Posted by logician

Then why use the word, they also weren't Christians "in name only", they professed deism, the fact that Jefferson went to church means as much as me as an atheist going to a church, it means nothing as far as my beliefs are concerned.

Dude, you just keep insisting on your beliefs despite the evidence presented to you. And people accuse us theists of being irrational. The FFs were NOT all deists. Honestly, I wonder how that rumour even got started. Methinks some proselytizing atheists such as yourself just thought that sounded closer to atheist and therefore nicer. Jefferson attended a Unitarian church when he was in Philly. Joseph Priestly's church. He was a Unitarian. He believed in God, and he believed in a God that does interact with us, as evidenced by the quote of him I posted earlier. He just didn't believe that Jesus was God and didn't believe in the miracles reported in the bible.

[logician]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Dude, you just keep insisting on your beliefs despite the evidence presented to you. And people accuse us theists of being irrational. The FFs were NOT all deists. Honestly, I wonder how that rumour even got started. Methinks some proselytizing atheists such as yourself just thought that sounded closer to atheist and therefore nicer. Jefferson attended a Unitarian church when he was in Philly. Joseph Priestly's church. He was a Unitarian. He believed in God, and he believed in a God that does interact with us, as evidenced by the quote of him I posted earlier. He just didn't believe that Jesus was God and didn't believe in the miracles reported in the bible.

Uh, dude or dudess, there are some that think Jefferson was an agnostic or atheist. Do your research.

The following statement from Jefferson is indistinguishable from what we
we woud now call agnosticism:

"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."

CHristopher HItchens in his biography "Thomas Jefferson; Author of America" thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes

"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".

[Reverend Rick]

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

In other words, political posturing to appease the religious masses, just like they still do today.

Exactly right! Frubals Heathen!

[Reverend Rick]

I find it amusing when people romanticize what the founding fathers were all about.

The truth of the matter is, they where self serving sexist racists.

[logician]

Originally Posted by mball1297

The point is that the Founding Fathers were at least nominally Christian. .

That's NOT the point at all, and this whole line of reasoning was brought up as a red herring. The POINT is the premise of my thread, that the U.S. was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

[Reverend Rick]

Originally Posted by logician

That's NOT the point at all, and this whole line of reasoning was brought up as a red herring. The POINT is the premise of my thread, that the U.S. was NOT founded as a Christian nation.

It was a nation of Christians lead by secretly non religious leaders who wanted to keep religion seperate from their government.

The idea was to get as far away from a king or queen as you could. Religious leaders where just as powerful back then. They wanted a government that was controlled by the people or at least their representatives.

[logician]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

It was a nation of Christians lead by secretly non religious leaders who wanted to keep religion seperate from their government.

The idea was to get as far away from a king or queen as you could. Religious leaders where just as powerful back then. They wanted a government that was controlled by the people or at least their representatives.

Thus not founded as a Christian nation, the premise of my thread.