The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. (Deists, America)

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Cool. I certainly recognize and appreciate that you are less strident and more open to discussion.

But in the context of your statement to which logician was responding, you were actually arguing against the Fathers being Christian, even if there was evidence.

That's what I'm saying, though. In this case I would consider myself agnostic. It seems to me that there's evidence that points to some of the Fathers being Christian, and to them not being Christian, and to them being outwardly Christian, etc. I don't have any strict conclusions about it, though.

If I seem to be arguing one way, it's mostly to make sure that particular viewpoint doesn't get lost and overlooked, not saying that it is the only way to look at it.

I do see what you mean, though, about him arguing with me about a point that seemed to be upholding his.

[MidnightBlue]

I'm not sure exactly how Einstein's opinions about god are relevant to the question of whether the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation, but whatever god he may have believed in, it was certainly not the Abrahamic god. He was quite clear that he didn't believe in a personal god, an anthropomorphic god, or a god who intervened in the world or answered prayers. He did use the word "God" from time to time -- so did Khrushchev, as far as that goes -- but the only "god" he believed in was one he described as "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human being." He said that it would be accurate to call him an agnostic, and that from the point of view of a Jesuit he was an atheist. Certainly, whatever god-concept he may have believed in, it was alien to the god-concept of Christians who trot out his Spinoza quote in support of their faith.

To return to the thread topic, most of the founding fathers were nominal Christians, but most of them would not have been accepted as Christians by our modern Evangelicals, and whatever their personal beliefs might have been, they made it absolutely clear that they weren't founding a "Christian nation."

[logician]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

To return to the thread topic, most of the founding fathers were nominal Christians,

This certainly is not true, most believed in a creator god only, not in the personal god of the Christians, making them deists, Jefferson had a true disdain for Christianity.

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by logician

This certainly is not true, most believed in a creator god only, not in the personal god of the Christians, making them deists, Jefferson had a true disdain for Christianity.

Maybe you missed the word "nominal". Here's the definition from Dictionary.com:

"being such in name only; so-called; putative"

EDIT: and it is a fact that Jefferson showed up to church sometimes.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by logician

This certainly is not true, most believed in a creator god only, not in the personal god of the Christians, making them deists, Jefferson had a true disdain for Christianity.

Please look up the word "nominal." I agree that most of the most prominent founding fathers were deists, Unitarians, or not particularly religious.

[mball1297]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Please look up the word "nominal." I agree that most of the most prominent founding fathers were deists, Unitarians, or not particularly religious.

No need. I was nice enough to do the work for him.

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by mball1297

No need. I was nice enough to do the work for him.

Alas, the system won't allow me to frubal you again yet.