The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. (Deists, America)

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Agreed, of course. But I also think the claim that most of our Founding Fathers were atheists is pure historical revisionism too. No shortage of historical revisionism going around.

hehe... agreed.

[BalanceFx]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

And then there's weirdos like me, who write their dates Year/Month/Day when given the option.

BTW - I do it for clarity: when you're confronted with X/Y/20ZZ, you can't tell whether X or Y is the day or month. With 20ZZ/Y/X, you know that Y is the month and X is the day, because nobody writes their dates Year/Day/Month.



The Declaration of Independence also declares liberty to be an inalienable right, yet prisons are constitutional, legal and widely used in the United States, as they have been throughout its history (maybe not as widely used as today, but they've always been a common practice).

I don't think the Declaration of Independence is the final word on what is legal, or even what the Constitutional framers intended.

I do the same thibg with dates! Esp organizing pictures etc.

[zippythepinhead]

Originally Posted by logician

Except this statement is not "uniquely" Xian at all. Many god concepts include a creator, including deism, the most common belief among our founding fathers.

Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by zippythepinhead

Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.

Set aside the Declaration of Independence for a moment for it is a reason for civil war, not a foundation document for a government.

Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is God mentioned? Answer NOWHERE.

On the other hand one must rememb er that the treaty in question was a document to dicker the price of tribute with a pirate nation that prayed on U.S. shipping--shipping that was virtually unprotected by a fleet in the Mediterranean.

The treaty writers wanted the best and lowest price for baksheesh, it said what would achieve the "best" rate.

The U.S. a few years later decided that NO tribute was the best rate and ponied up the money to send a fleet to the Mediterranean and conduct The Barbary War against Tripoli and the other pirate nations.

If you can sing the first verse of The Marine Hymn you DO know about the Barbary Wars.
Barbary Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One can't inflate the importance of the document too much. Sure Judaeo Christian concepts run through the founding of the U.S.. But it is just as compelling to note that when the ink hit the paper the founding fathers did whatever necessary to keep this government unassociated with any official religion.

Regards,
Scoptt

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by zippythepinhead

Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.

I go to church on a semi-regular basis. I am not a theist or deist by any stretch of the imagination, and none of my morality is dependent on Christianity specifically or "Judeochristian principles" generally. Why do you make your assumption when it comes to the American Founding Fathers?

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

One can't inflate the importance of the document too much. Sure Judaeo Christian concepts run through the founding of the U.S.. But it is just as compelling to note that when the ink hit the paper the founding fathers did whatever necessary to keep this government unassociated with any official religion.

I think it's also useful to remember the context in which the Constitution was written: the framers of the document would have been very familiar with a long history in Britain and Continental Europe of sectarian violence and the outright tyranny and wholesale murder inflicted in the name of state religion. Given what I see as an attempt by the American Founding Fathers to quash what they saw as harmful aspects of the culture of their origin, I think the idea of establishing a secular government separated from religion completely fits with that goal, regardless of the personal beliefs of those involved in creation of the United States government and its fundamental laws.

[zippythepinhead]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Set aside the Declaration of Independence for a moment for it is a reason for civil war, not a foundation document for a government.

Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is God mentioned? Answer NOWHERE.

On the other hand one must rememb er that the treaty in question was a document to dicker the price of tribute with a pirate nation that prayed on U.S. shipping--shipping that was virtually unprotected by a fleet in the Mediterranean.

The treaty writers wanted the best and lowest price for baksheesh, it said what would achieve the "best" rate.

The U.S. a few years later decided that NO tribute was the best rate and ponied up the money to send a fleet to the Mediterranean and conduct The Barbary War against Tripoli and the other pirate nations.

If you can sing the first verse of The Marine Hymn you DO know about the Barbary Wars.
Barbary Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One can't inflate the importance of the document too much. Sure Judaeo Christian concepts run through the founding of the U.S.. But it is just as compelling to note that when the ink hit the paper the founding fathers did whatever necessary to keep this government unassociated with any official religion.

Regards,
Scoptt

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice and secure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Where do blessings come from? God. God is referenced in the constitution directly though not by name.

[Storm]

Wow, you're really grasping at straws, there.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by zippythepinhead

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice and secure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Where do blessings come from? God. God is referenced in the constitution directly though not by name.

Nonsense!

Main Entry: bless·ing Function: noun Date: before 12th century 1 a: the act or words of one that blesses b: approval, encouragement
2: a thing conducive to happiness or welfare
3: grace said at a meal

Regards,
Scott

[Draka]

Originally Posted by zippythepinhead

Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.

Um, no, first off it was not founded on Judeochristian principles. Why is it so hard for some people to realize that there are common concepts throughout humankind, regardless of religion, that are considered best for working and condusive societies? The fact that some religions also have these concepts incorporated into them doesn't mean that a government based on these principles are based on any religion. Just that certain things agree. The U.S. was founded on Christianity about as much as environmental laws are based on Earth-centered Pagan religions.

Second, it has been shown over and over that most of the "Founding Fathers" were not truly Christian at all, but more Deist or even agnostic in their beliefs. Just because someone may go to or attend a church (in that time a normal gathering for communities to socialize and discuss business and politics as well as worship) doesn't mean that they automatically believe in the beliefs advertised by said church.

Originally Posted by zippythepinhead

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice and secure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Where do blessings come from? God. God is referenced in the constitution directly though not by name.

Now that really is stretching for a point. And you still can't reach it even with that stretch. One, look up blessing in the dictionary and one of the definitions is "anything which brings happiness". Would you disagree that freedom brings happiness?

Two, how do you refer to someone or something "directly" and NOT directly mention them???