The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation. (Deists, America)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by logician

From the many quotes of Jefferson I posted here, Jefferson was about as far from being a Christian as one can be, and as quoted before, may have been considered an agnostic or an atheist had he been living today.

Only by the mentally infirm.

"The god who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."

"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."

"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did."

And last quote is in a private letter from Jefferson to Adams, lest anyone think he was just saying that for public consumption. Jefferson was not an atheist, but he did seek to protect the rights of atheists. These were great men who looked out for the higher good for more than just themselves, and you seek to turn him into someone who looked out only for his own interests.

[logician]

The following statement fropm Jefferson is indistinguishable from what we
we woud now call agnosticism:

"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."

CHristopher HItchens in his biography Th omas Jefferson; Author of America thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes

"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by logician

The following statement fropm Jefferson is indistinguishable from what we
we woud now call agnosticism:

"
TO talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings.TO say that the human soul, angels, god, are immatelrial is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise.....without plunging into the fathomless abyss of dreams and phantasms. I am satisifed, and sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself aoubt those which may indeed be, but of which I have no evidence."

CHristopher HItchens in his biography Th omas Jefferson; Author of America thinks it likely Jefferson was an atheist. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr he writes

"If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virture in the comfort and pleasantness you will feel in this exercise, and the love of otheres which will procure you".

If by agnostic you mean someone who holds that it is impossible to know for certain whether there is deity or not, then of course he was an agnostic. It is the only rational conclusion that one can reach. But if by agnostic you mean how it is generally used, sort of a soft atheist, someone who is not sure whether there is deity or not but leans towards no, then NO, Jefferson was not an agnostic.

It means squat that Hitchens thinks it likely that Jefferson was an atheist. He's doing the same thing that you're doing - trying to bolster the legitimacy of your own position by claiming that a person whom most people respect is one your side and against others.

The actual quotes of Jefferson that you give, I am in complete agreement with. They are not contrary to a belief in deity. In the first quote, he is speaking against immaterialism. He's saying that if you believe that god, etc is immaterial then you might as well believe in nothing. In other words, Jefferson believed that any concept of god had to have real consequences in this world. And in the second quote he is saying that he has no problem with atheism, that if his nephew comes to that conclusion, that's fine. Jefferson did not believe that one has to be a theist to be moral. But that doesn't make him an atheist. Jeez louise. I've already given you a quote where Jefferson says that he could never be an atheist - your persistence here is bordering on irrational.

[Starfish]

More quotes by Jefferson:

Source - America's God and Country Encyclopedia of Quotations, ed. William J. Federer, FAME publishing, Inc. 1994
Belief - Episcopalian
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." 1781, Query XVIII of his Notes on that State of Virginia.
"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference to all others..." April 21, 1803 in a letter to Dr. Benjamin.
“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

From my reading, when some of these men spoke unfavorably about religion, they weren't speaking about their faith in Christ. They were speaking about the churches and the popular doctrines of their day. They seemed to find an inconsistency between those churches and the pure doctrine of Christ.

I can't say for sure, by it sounds like Thomas Jefferson might have been very interested to hear what Joseph Smith had to say.

[rheff78]

Look, SOME of the foudning fathers may not have been christians. Some were. I think that is besides the point. If you want to get down to it then the first colonies in America were founded on fleeing religious persecution to practice their own brand of christianity. So, where all the founding fathers christians, maybe not. But was the reason for people coming here to practice religion freely, absolutely. This is what I think the nation was founded upon.

[logician]

Originally Posted by lilithu

- your persistence here is bordering on irrational.

Ditto for you.

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by rheff78

Look, SOME of the foudning fathers may not have been christians. Some were. I think that is besides the point. If you want to get down to it then the first colonies in America were founded on fleeing religious persecution to practice their own brand of christianity. So, where all the founding fathers christians, maybe not. But was the reason for people coming here to practice religion freely, absolutely. This is what I think the nation was founded upon.

No one is implying that people shouldn't be able to practice their religion freely. What people are saying, however, is that the state should never become a theocracy. This is in response to people who say "America was founded as a Christian nation and so we should advocate and enforce Christian doctrine by law, h'yuk." You know, like imprisoning homosexuals or science teachers.

[Starfish]

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

No one is implying that people shouldn't be able to practice their religion freely. What people are saying, however, is that the state should never become a theocracy. This is in response to people who say "America was founded as a Christian nation and so we should advocate and enforce Christian doctrine by law, h'yuk." You know, like imprisoning homosexuals or science teachers.

I agree. (Again, I'm agreeing with an atheist!)
Just wondering. Since I haven't seen any homosexuals or science teachers imprisoned, do you have any examples of the Christian community imposing itself upon others through law? The marriage amendment maybe. Anything else? Thanks.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by Starfish

I agree. (Again, I'm agreeing with an atheist!)
Just wondering. Since I haven't seen any homosexuals or science teachers imprisoned, do you have any examples of the Christian community imposing itself upon others through law? The marriage amendment maybe. Anything else? Thanks.

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