The Question of Free Will and Christianity (ritual, tradition, soul)

ericoh2 · #1 05-06-2008, 03:06 PM

Under the Christian belief system total free will is not possible. Free will states that an individual has the ability to make a decision without being controlled or programmed in any way. First of all we have to identify what the term "self" or "individual" is referring to. For the most part in the Christian faith the indivual is thought to be a combination of the soul, genetics and enviromental influence. They believe the soul is given to you after conception by God and you receive your DNA layout from your parents. If this were true than these two factors are completly out of your hands and are decided by factors that you could not control. Even the experiences that you have are decided by these factors. If you were born 500 years ago you would probably be a completly different person simply because of your enviroment.
This means that in the traditional Christian faith there is no real purpose for existence. If you are "good" you were made to be "good", if your are not then you were not made to be. Either way their wouldn't be a point for existence. The only way true free will is possible is if you are one with the eternal. Simply a point of consciousness within the infinite ocean of existence.

I hope to get some good replies, have a great day.

Ringer · #2 05-06-2008, 03:12 PM

I do not believe in ultimate free will. I think the Bible teaches that we have relative free will in that we are free to make choices but those choices are not out of the sphere of God's control. I don't know if that's the best way to put it I picture it like a horse running around an enclosed field. The horse is free to roam around but only within certain parameters that have been established. Hope that makes sense.

BruceDLimber · #3 05-06-2008, 03:15 PM

Greetings!

From my POV free will is a given in ALL the great religions!

I would say that while created noble, what we do with ourselves--and make of ourselves--is largely under our own control, which is why our spiritual status is also our individual, personal responsibility.

And given that we start out as essentially a tabula rasa, it's the combination of initial parental & community training and--especially--our own endeavors at self-improvement that ultimately determines our circumstances!

The Baha'i scriptures put it this way:

"Man is the supreme talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom."

-- (Gleanings, CXXII, pp. 259-260)

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

stephenw · #4 05-06-2008, 03:16 PM

It seems certain to me that decisions are made in the pre-conscious so there is no conscious free will.
However that is not how I experience my everyday life, illusory as it may be I experience free will.
The above sentences seem contradictory yet they are both 'true' to me.
How do you think they conflict with my Christianity again?

Random · #5 05-06-2008, 03:19 PM

Choice is essentially discrimination, predicated upon and conditioned by the state of awareness of the chooser. I am not a Christian, but if one can choose against the will of God as Satan did (allegedly) in the traditions, then freewill is affirmed.

Rolling_Stone · #6 05-06-2008, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephenw

It seems certain to me that decisions are made in the pre-conscious so there is no conscious free will.

I wonder...maybe the relations in the conscious conditions the pre-conscious where the decisions are made. In other words, maybe our relationship with Totality determines our decisions rather than the conscious mind.

Just a random thought.

logician · #7 05-06-2008, 04:49 PM

If mankind has no free will, then there is no culpability(from a theistic viewpoint). Determinism says that nature follows exact laws, so that what will happen in the future is a necessary consequence of the state of the world at any given moment in the past. Plato denied free will, in that people would always choose a better (to them) over a worse action. Aristotle disagreed however, distingusihing reason from desire, saying that people may choose something that may be the more harmful option. I personally think we have a good deal of free will, because not all of our decision are rational or logical, and more importantly, our decisions cannot be predicted with certainty with any model on an individual basis.

stephenw · #8 05-06-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone

I wonder...maybe the relations in the conscious conditions the pre-conscious where the decisions are made. In other words, maybe our relationship with Totality determines our decisions rather than the conscious mind.

Just a random thought.

That's a great thought. More to wonder about !

lmnmom · #9 05-06-2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericoh2

Under the Christian belief system total free will is not possible. Free will states that an individual has the ability to make a decision without being controlled or programmed in any way. First of all we have to identify what the term "self" or "individual" is referring to. For the most part in the Christian faith the indivual is thought to be a combination of the soul, genetics and enviromental influence. They believe the soul is given to you after conception by God and you receive your DNA layout from your parents. If this were true than these two factors are completly out of your hands and are decided by factors that you could not control. Even the experiences that you have are decided by these factors. If you were born 500 years ago you would probably be a completly different person simply because of your enviroment.
This means that in the traditional Christian faith there is no real purpose for existence. If you are "good" you were made to be "good", if your are not then you were not made to be. Either way their wouldn't be a point for existence. The only way true free will is possible is if you are one with the eternal. Simply a point of consciousness within the infinite ocean of existence.

I hope to get some good replies, have a great day.

I guess the first problem is it depends on what you think free will is. I think free will is your ability to make decisions for yourself. No matter what, environment is going to influence what you do in life, as is what you were taught as a child. However, neither of these CONTROL your choices, you can still go against them, which is free will.

What I'm getting from your line of logic is that if someone's parent was a rapist, that means they will be a rapist. If their parents were violent, then they will be violent. Is it not the same concept that you are putting out here?

I guess a lot of what you're saying is very hypothetical too me. You would have to assume that the "good" soul, once it reached earth, continued to stay on the same path that it did before it was born. But that's when free will steps in, because you can't really prove that a "good" soul went bad or stayed good because we simply don't have that kind of information.

ericoh2 · #10 05-06-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lmnmom

I guess the first problem is it depends on what you think free will is. I think free will is your ability to make decisions for yourself. No matter what, environment is going to influence what you do in life, as is what you were taught as a child. However, neither of these CONTROL your choices, you can still go against them, which is free will.

What I'm getting from your line of logic is that if someone's parent was a rapist, that means they will be a rapist. If their parents were violent, then they will be violent. Is it not the same concept that you are putting out here?

I guess a lot of what you're saying is very hypothetical too me. You would have to assume that the "good" soul, once it reached earth, continued to stay on the same path that it did before it was born. But that's when free will steps in, because you can't really prove that a "good" soul went bad or stayed good because we simply don't have that kind of information.

The Point that I was trying to get across has nothing to do with the actions of a person. My attempt here was to identify "who you are." If your name is Mike, just exactly who do you think Mike is? In Christianity Mike would be a being that consisted of his God given soul at birth, his genetics given to him at birth and the environmental factors that shaped him. When you analyze this scenario you realize in the Christian faith Mike, as a being, would consist of three factors that he had no control over. Yes you are correct that the actions that this individual take are of his own choosing but who is making these decisions? In Christianity the answer is a being that was programmed to make them. To them God gave this particular body, a particular soul, that existed in a particular environment none of which Mike had any control over.
My main message here is that there must be a defined being in order for free will to truly exist. Not a being that was made and programmed to be a certain way, that is not free will. Free will in its truest sens must ultimately come from an eternal existence.