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  #21  
Old 05-07-2008, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ericoh2 View Post
Under the Christian belief system total free will is not possible. Free will states that an individual has the ability to make a decision without being controlled or programmed in any way. First of all we have to identify what the term "self" or "individual" is referring to. For the most part in the Christian faith the indivual is thought to be a combination of the soul, genetics and enviromental influence. They believe the soul is given to you after conception by God and you receive your DNA layout from your parents. If this were true than these two factors are completly out of your hands and are decided by factors that you could not control. Even the experiences that you have are decided by these factors. If you were born 500 years ago you would probably be a completly different person simply because of your enviroment.
This means that in the traditional Christian faith there is no real purpose for existence. If you are "good" you were made to be "good", if your are not then you were not made to be. Either way their wouldn't be a point for existence. The only way true free will is possible is if you are one with the eternal. Simply a point of consciousness within the infinite ocean of existence.

I hope to get some good replies, have a great day.

Free will exists in the bible, so self professed christians should believe in free will.

Have you seen the minority report starring Tom Cruise?

you will feel goosebumps when the precog said " you can choooooseeeeee"
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  #22  
Old 05-08-2008, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by uss_bigd View Post
Free will exists in the bible, so self professed christians should believe in free will.

Have you seen the minority report starring Tom Cruise?

you will feel goosebumps when the precog said " you can choooooseeeeee"
Its a great discussion. Currenttly Martha Farah offers a modern look at free will and why it most probably is an illusion. I would suggest if your interested to atleast listen to a few of her lectures or read some of her white papers. I think wired interviewed her a while back too.

Its an old Idea. (Rationalism and rational thought seems to be based on this but is different.) Here are some quotes from Spinoza that got me started thinking about this:
There is no mind absolute or free will, but the mind is determined for willing this or that by a cause which is determined in its turn by another cause, and this one again by another, and so on to infinity.
(Benedictus de Spinoza, 1673)

The mind is determined to this or that choice by a cause which is also determined by another cause, and this again by another, and so on ad infinitum. This doctrine teaches us to hate no one, to despise no one, to mock no one, to be angry with no one, and to envy no one.
(Benedictus de Spinoza, 1673)
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  #23  
Old 05-08-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone View Post
Yes or no, depending on whether free will exists. If "no," then it doesn't matter because the idea and its fallout are mechanistic and inevitable. If the answer is "yes" and people are taught to believe the answer is "no," the repercussions could be catastrophic for society and civilization.
how could it be catastrophic for society and civilisation when quite frankly only a very small minority even think about it.
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  #24  
Old 05-09-2008, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BalanceFx View Post
Currenttly Martha Farah offers a modern look at free will and why it most probably is an illusion.
If she's right, then it doesn't matter what she says, does it?

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Originally Posted by kai View Post
how could it be catastrophic for society and civilisation when quite frankly only a very small minority even think about it.
You're right. Only a few billion religionists think about it at all.
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  #25  
Old 05-09-2008, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by ericoh2 View Post
Under the Christian belief system total free will is not possible. Free will states that an individual has the ability to make a decision without being controlled or programmed in any way. First of all we have to identify what the term "self" or "individual" is referring to. For the most part in the Christian faith the indivual is thought to be a combination of the soul, genetics and enviromental influence. They believe the soul is given to you after conception by God and you receive your DNA layout from your parents. If this were true than these two factors are completly out of your hands and are decided by factors that you could not control. Even the experiences that you have are decided by these factors. If you were born 500 years ago you would probably be a completly different person simply because of your enviroment.
This means that in the traditional Christian faith there is no real purpose for existence. If you are "good" you were made to be "good", if your are not then you were not made to be. Either way their wouldn't be a point for existence. The only way true free will is possible is if you are one with the eternal. Simply a point of consciousness within the infinite ocean of existence.

I hope to get some good replies, have a great day.
Well I guess most would describe me as a non-traditional Christian.

I believe our spirits existed in some for for all eternity. We all lived with God before comming to the Earth. It was our choice to come to the Earth or not.
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  #26  
Old 05-09-2008, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone
Science has yet to figure out what consciousness is. Until it does, it's rather presumptious to make such a conclusion. But assuming it's right, the Chili's ads and the impressions it made are all predetermined. You post was predetermined. This response was inevitable. War is inevitable and opinions about it are meaningless. You are not you and I am not me: we are mechanisms. Nothing more.
Something being horrible is not enough to reject it as being true. There are plenty of things that have happened that we would rather had not happened and yet this feeling doesn't not make them so.

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Originally Posted by Rolling Stone
If she's right, then it doesn't matter what she says, does it?
Does free will itself bring meaning or a corollary to free will?
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  #27  
Old 05-09-2008, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone View Post
If she's right, then it doesn't matter what she says, does it?

You're right. Only a few billion religionists think about it at all.

i dont thinkthey sit and ponder it much at all actually! most o those billions have more important things to do than sit an ponder the free will argument.
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  #28  
Old 05-09-2008, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone View Post
If she's right, then it doesn't matter what she says, does it?

You're right. Only a few billion religionists think about it at all.
Heh... I take it you didn't read what she has to say. It does matter. Its not random and is percieved as free will but it is a form of Rationality.

I don't know what billions of people you talk to but normally if I mention determinism or hard determinism I've already lost the attention of who ever I am talking to. Free will discussions can also quickly lead to religious discussions. The background needed for a philosphical discussion on free will is really not that substansive but the reasoning and enlightenment behind it normally is.
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  #29  
Old 05-09-2008, 08:57 AM
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