Is There Really A God? (priests, Creator, soul, creation)

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Bouncing Ball

I explained this too many times..

I don't know if you follow evolution, but think with me here. we are going way back, before the "civilised" humans were formed.
3 creatures are in a group searching for food. 2 of them are crawling into eachother arms because they are cold. the third one is cold as well, but he is too much. He's cold, so he pulls one out of the other for himself. the other does not like this ofcourse. so in a brute attack he kills the third one. Without your precious morals all logical right?
Now he wants to crawl back into the warm arms, but the one waiting saw him kill another creature and got scared to get killed herself, so she rejects the murderer.

Bang! The murderer learned that it is bad too kill.

Now I ask you, do you really need a book to tell you that it is bad too kill? Because for me it's very logical that only bad things can come from it..

First of all, I appreciate you trying to explain it to me. Second, "my precious morals? I thought they were everyone's. Third, how do we know the thrid creature learned it was bad to kill? Maybe she learned it was good to kill in order to get her way? maybe they were demonstarting survival of the fittest.

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I disagree, the way I understand it compassion derives from empathy.

Imagine a hypothetical situation where a man has been raised without any laws, no one has been there to teach him their version of right from wrong. Still, if he came upon a man with a broken leg, he would still have the ability to put himself in the injured man's place, being human he can imagine his own leg damaged and painful.
This wouldn't necessarily lead to him helping the injured man (compassion), but it does give him the option.
Without the initial empathy, he cannot build a relationship with the man (even if that relationship is simply a recognition of the man's pain and a degree of sympathy) and so will consider the man as either a non-consequence or a resource to be exploited i.e. it's easier to steal from an injured man.

Also, from the other end of the spectrum, in war or any kind of violence, a (sane) person will almost always find a method of dehumanising his foe, thus rendering empathy with his enemy impotent and allowing him to commit acts he would otherwise be incapable of.

I understand where you are going, but it still doesn't hold true. Why do we automatically put ourselves in that person's situation? Compassion comes from first. You must feel sorry for the person in order to put yourself in their situation first. If I walk down the street, I see someone just got hit by a car, I am immediately stunned and full of horror and compassion for that person, THEN I put myself there. I know it's a little off topic but a good discussion none the less.

[Bouncing Ball]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Now, if I were to ask "How do you know there is a supernatural deity (god) that created the world and continues to commune with humanity on a personal basis?" then that would be a specific question with a defined use of the word god that can actually be answered in a meaningful manner and in the form that (presumably) he intended the question to take.

Does that make my point clearer?

Your point was actually quite clear. Only I do not think that what he wants to shout here is equal to what you think he wants to ask

[Bouncing Ball]

Originally Posted by rheff78

First of all, I appreciate you trying to explain it to me.

Second, "my precious morals? I thought they were everyone's.

I could have said that better, apology. And no, I asume your morals are not mine at all.. Most will be equal but definatelly not all..

Third, how do we know the thrid creature learned it was bad to kill? Maybe she learned it was good to kill in order to get her way? maybe they were demonstarting survival of the fittest.

We don't know. But if it's a possibillity then it's a way to go without written morals.
Besides, she didn't learn it was good to kill, because the purpose of the killing was in this case the warm spot, and he didn't get it in the end. So he started in her arms, killed and ended out of her arms.

[MoonWater]

"How do I know there is a God?"
I don't. I believe in the Gods and follow my patron and believe she guides me because of personal experiences but I am aware of the possibility that these experiences could be misinterpreted and that I could be wrong. But even if I were to be proven wrong I would not feel like my time has been wasted or feel like an idiot for believing in something that "wasn't there", This is because I find the path I follow to be spiritually, mentally, and emotionally nourishing and uplifting. It's helped me to grow and become a better person. Even if it ends up being false my beliefs have bettered my life and I see no reason why, if proven false, I should look down on them or on myself when they have done so much good for me.

"How do I know there is a heaven?"
Again I don't. I don't even believe in heaven and in fact find the prospect of eternal bliss dull and pointless. I do believe however that after numerous incarnations our souls will become harmonized and we will become one with the forces that created us. Now this is NOT something I KNOW, I have no way to prove it or provide evidence for it nor would I try. This is what I believe and just as I said above I know that I could be wrong.

"If there is a God why is there war and famine?"
Because of humanity. I see the Gods as mentors and thus just like our human teachers can only guide us, they can't control us. Meanwhile the "forces that created us" which I mentioned earlier I see them as being above concepts of Good and evil and thus whether there is war or famine or not makes no difference to them.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by rheff78

I understand where you are going, but it still doesn't hold true. Why do we automatically put ourselves in that person's situation? Compassion comes from first. You must feel sorry for the person in order to put yourself in their situation first. If I walk down the street, I see someone just got hit by a car, I am immediately stunned and full of horror and compassion for that person, THEN I put myself there. I know it's a little off topic but a good discussion none the less.

I still disagree , I think it's the putting yourself there that causes the compassion, empathy doesn't have to be a conscious thought process, it just sort of happens, fast.

To take your example;
1. Bang! Car hits man.
2. First reaction is one of surprise, and if you see blood etc, probably a little disgust - you won't move immediately to help but keep your distance for a moment.
3. Horror, this is the phase that empathy kicks in, you don't have to think about how you'd actually feel being hit by a car, the horror itself comes from you subconsciously imagining yourself in their position, its why its so very scary - later this horror could well be amplified by thinking about the persons family, yet more empathy.
4. Compassion, the horror has kicked in, you've imagined yourself in their position and its scared you, you run over to help because that's what you would want other people to do for you and also, because you've already empathised with the injured party, you can imagine how much in pain they're in and how scared they are.

[Red Pill]

Originally Posted by Atheist123

Can someone help me answer this?

1. How do you know there is a god?

I do not know. I have considered evidence, and weighed it. I believe there is a God who created this life and all that supports it. I find the order in the universe supports my belief. I have had experiences that I attribute to a superior being than myself. I consider the words and works of thoughtful belivers and choose that side.

[quote=Atheist123;1107604]Can someone help me answer this?

2. How do you know there is a heaven?

quote]

Again, how can anyone know this? With the economy of life we observe here on this earth, it seems it would be a waste if we just dissappear. That is my opinion.

Originally Posted by Atheist123

Can someone help me answer this?

3. If there is a God, why is there war and famish in the world?

I look to nature for patterns to make sense of things. We all have a body. Most of us do not like pain. That is the plan- pain tells us something is out of balance or even something more serious. Pain helps us connect with our body- we want to care for it. Some people with leprosy report that they think of the non feeling parts of their body
as tools, not part of them. Those people run on broken legs or reach into a fire to retrieve an item. Perhaps suffering, famine and the like are the "pain" that alerts us that something is wrong with our society- and we should fix it. Perhaps when we work at fixing things we become more connected to the suffering people, and they become part of "us" not one of "them". When we ignore the suffering, our world gets worse- sicker. So suffering, tragedy, famine are warning signs, and are meant to help us to unite with each other.

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Bouncing Ball

I could have said that better, apology. And no, I asume your morals are not mine at all.. Most will be equal but definatelly not all..


We don't know. But if it's a possibillity then it's a way to go without written morals.
Besides, she didn't learn it was good to kill, because the purpose of the killing was in this case the warm spot, and he didn't get it in the end. So he started in her arms, killed and ended out of her arms.

Yea but she also learned that by killing the other animal got what she wanted. So in essence, in order to get what you want, killing is the correct route to take. And no apologies needed for the morality thing. I was just nit-picking.

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I still disagree , I think it's the putting yourself there that causes the compassion, empathy doesn't have to be a conscious thought process, it just sort of happens, fast.

To take your example;
1. Bang! Car hits man.
2. First reaction is one of surprise, and if you see blood etc, probably a little disgust - you won't move immediately to help but keep your distance for a moment.
3. Horror, this is the phase that empathy kicks in, you don't have to think about how you'd actually feel being hit by a car, the horror itself comes from you subconsciously imagining yourself in their position, its why its so very scary - later this horror could well be amplified by thinking about the persons family, yet more empathy.
4. Compassion, the horror has kicked in, you've imagined yourself in their position and its scared you, you run over to help because that's what you would want other people to do for you and also, because you've already empathised with the injured party, you can imagine how much in pain they're in and how scared they are.

Well it seems we are just seeing it differently then. I think the compassion comes first. I don't have to imagine myself in their situation to feel bad for the person first.