Did Jesus say he was God??? (moral, Earth, Messiah, virgin)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Muffled

I have another verse that shows Jesus equated Himself with God:

Joh 5:39Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;

The scriptures mentioned have to be the Tenach since the New Testament hadn't been written yet. The one person who is talked about throughout scripture is God. Therefore Jesus is saying that He is God.

This, again, is INCORRECT..... God has always talked about raising up and sending messengers and prophets.....

You seem to work soley on your interpretations as to what the scriptures are implying but time and time again we see they are explicitly saying the opposite.

John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish,the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Who was the sender? God...Who was sent?.... Yeshua....What was he sent to do?....God's will

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Who did the giving?...God.....Who received?...Yeshua.....Who's greater.....God is greater than ALL....Surely he can't be greater than Yeshua because Yeshua is, as you assert, is God?????.....Observe John 14:28

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Who's the servant?...Yeshua....Who's his master?.....his god.....and since we know he was sent he is not greater than his god that sent him.


John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Who is the father?....God.....who's greater than Yeshua?.....his god.....

Are they equal?...NOPE....Why not?

John6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

So no......Yeshua has never said or suggested he was equal to his god. If you observe before and after John 5:39 he gives all the glory to his god that sent him. To be sent one must have a sender.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by DreGod07

Did the gospel of John express Yeshua to be God?

Nope...


Where there oral traditions given by men claiming Yeshua to be God?

Yep...It wasn't until after the death of Yeshua men began to teach this.


Were they correct?

Nope...Especially if you read the gospel of John.

Thats funny. Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God. But there is much more in other biblical books too. Peter who was Jesus' hand picked prime minister and leader of the infant church also declares Christ to be God in his letters in the bible. However John is the most blatant, specially Chapters 1 and 8. The oral apostolic traditions of the apostles handed down to the fathers express that Jesus was God. St Ignatius of Antioch a handpicked apostle of St John himself proclaimed Jesus to be God. So history is against you as well as scripture. Even pagan and Jewish sources pick up on this. But you may beleive as you will.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Thats funny.

I knew you would chucke at it....

Originally Posted by athanasius

Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God.

For a minute there I thought you were going to say ALL. Whew....there's still hope. There are still scholars who refute the scriptures ever showing Yeshua claiming to be God.

Originally Posted by athanasius

But there is much more in other biblical books too.

Are you referring to the books of the NT beyond the 4 gospels? I recently downloaded a video where the commentator (who is a christian) examines a book that the church, (Library of the Greek Patriarch) called (The Teaching), has in their posession wherein the book they (Yeshua's family members and followers) did not view Yeshua to be God and referred to Yeshua as God's Servant.

Originally Posted by athanasius

Peter who was Jesus' hand picked prime minister and leader of the infant church also declares Christ to be God in his letters in the bible.

Can you list book chapter and verse so that I can study it? I've read them and I don't see that quote. I have an idea which one you're going to give me but I'm not sure.

Additionally, if Peter is so important, as you seem to be suggesting here, then why isn't the church quoting from the "Apocalypse of Peter"......??

It's kind of weird that church leaders deemed it as scripture but no one quotes from it. Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1)


The Apocalypse of Peter

"Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you, O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed, for the invisible one has opposed them."

When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said "What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me? Or who is this one, glad and laughing on the tree? And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking?"
The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

To each his own I guess....

Originally Posted by athanasius

However John is the most blatant, specially Chapters 1 and 8.

Well I beleive Yeshua to be the word of his god (God's amabassasdor and mouthpiece who was taught and commanded to bring the word of God to the people) Luke 24:19 ....."Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people". John 8, from what I can tell says nothing of Yeshua being God or claiming to be God. We can post quotes from John til we are blue in the face and it still won't get us anywhere. For kicks and giggles we can start with John 3:34 and John 6:38 if you prefer.

Originally Posted by athanasius

The oral apostolic traditions of the apostles handed down to the fathers express that Jesus was God.

And we have other oral traditions that expressed Yeshua was not God. Are we going to start quoting all those that came after Yeshua rendering their opinion as to the nature of Yeshua (some or most who never met him) becaue I'm sure we can go on and on as to who believed what back then?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Thats funny. Most biblical scholars(Catholic and protestant) will cite example after example in John's Gospel showing Jesus to be equated with God.

And they are all wrong--proven through the actual words of Jesus, who denies any such equation.

They are trying to weigh the scripture with their own faulty unde3rstanding.

"Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they
had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge , gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts. Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people." Baha`u'llah, Kitabi Iqan (Book of Certitude), pp 10-11

Regards,

Scott

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

And they are all wrong--proven through the actual words of Jesus, who denies any such equation.

They are trying to weigh the scripture with their own faulty unde3rstanding.

"Unto every discerning observer it is evident and manifest that had these people in the days of each of the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth sanctified their eyes, their ears, and their hearts from whatever they
had seen, heard, and felt, they surely would not have been deprived of beholding the beauty of God, nor strayed far from the habitations of glory. But having weighed the testimony of God by the standard of their own knowledge , gleaned from the teachings of the leaders of their faith, and found it at variance with their limited understanding, they arose to perpetrate such unseemly acts. Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp. Some for the lust of leadership, others through want of knowledge and understanding, have been the cause of the deprivation of the people." Baha`u'llah, Kitabi Iqan (Book of Certitude), pp 10-11

Regards,

Scott

This is only true from the standpoint of you finding fault in my understanding. You have not once been able to prove that my reasoning is falacious.

[Muffled]

God never wanted Israel to have a king other than Himself. Jesus is sent to be King of Israel not to be another human king but to be the God King.

Jesus talked about the Kingdom of God and said that it was His (Jesus's) kingdom which by name is also God's kingdom. THerefore Jesus is God.

[lew0049]

This is going to be my last post about this topic as I will try to explain all of the reasons why I believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. If you do not agree with me or my views on the matter then I’m sorry, for this post will just include reasons why I think Jesus = God. I will say this though, I am very confident that many of you are like me in a sense (although I try not to be): instead of actually absorbing what other people say, our immediate inclination is to think of ways to discount what is being said. After stating this, I will say that what I say is not meant to “win” a debate because winning a debate would mean that I won people over to my side, something that is nearly impossible b/c words cannot change one’s mentality or thought process. Also, instead of trying to explain things in my words, I probably will directly quote authors that I find insightful. To simplify things, I’m just going to make a list:

• I’ll admit when you read the Bible, many times Jesus proclaims “My Father” and numerous other things that seem to indicate, not someone, but something that is in a position of more authority than Him. I am sorry, but I cannot think of God as being ‘someone’ like we think of humans.
• In many instances, various passages identify God as being a hidden God. One that you must seek out. This does not mean that anyone will ever fully find Him or for that matter are supposed too b/c then wouldn’t we be nearly like God?
• Now, before I read the Bible and analyze what was written, I feel that if the Bible is accurately describing God, then there will be things that I cannot understand – I am not capable of it. Obviously, God is not of this world hence we do not share the same dimensions or perspective as Him. Therefore, if there is something describing who he is to us, how can I (in our 3D world) understand something that is being explained regarding something from another world or dimension. Logically, I don’t believe I can – if you think you can then great.
• I know some might not want to read the following but I hope you do. Even if you do not like C.S Lewis, try to read the following because I think he addresses an important issue regarding God and He not being in Time like us. Why is an issue like this important? Because if we are to correctly analyze something – it helps if you approach the subject from the right perspective. If we are to use quotes from the Bible about God, like many of us have done, our approach should be correct:

If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all round, contains the whole line, and sees it all.
The idea is worth trying to grasp because it removes some apparent difficulties in Christianity. Before I became a Christian one of my objections was as follows. The Christians said that the eternal God who is everywhere and keeps the whole universe going, once became a human being. Well then, said 1, how did the whole universe keep going while He was a baby, or while He was asleep? How could He at the same time be God who knows everything and also a man asking his disciples "who touched me?" You will notice that the sting lay in the time words: "While He was a baby" --"How could He at the same time?" In other words I was assuming that Christ's life as God was in time, and that His life as the man Jesus in Palestine was a shorter period taken out of that time--just as my service in the army was a shorter period taken out of my total life. And that is how most of us perhaps tend to think about it. We picture God living through a period when His human life was still in the future: then coming to a period when it was present: then going on to a period when He could look back on it as something in the past. But probably these ideas correspond to nothing in the actual facts. You cannot fit Christ's earthly life in Palestine into any time-relations with His life as God beyond all space and time. It is really, I suggest, a timeless truth about God that human nature, and the human experience of weakness and sleep and ignorance, are somehow included in His whole divine life. This human life in God is from our point of view a particular period in the history of our world (from the year A.D. one till the Crucifixion). We therefore imagine it is also a period in the history of God's own existence. But God has no history. He is too completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it had already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is still in the future): in fact having nothing but the tiny little present, which has gone before you can speak about it. God forbid we should think God was like that. Even we may hope not to be always rationed in that way.
Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call today." All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday, He simply sees you doing them: because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not "foresee" you doing things tomorrow, He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way--because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action tin you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already "Now" for Him.
This idea has helped me a good deal. If it does not help you, leave it alone. It is a "Christian idea" in the sense that great and wise Christians have held it and there is nothing in it contrary to Christianity. But it is not in the Bible or any of the creeds. You can be a perfectly good Christian without accepting it, or indeed without thinking of the matter at all.Regardless if you like or believe what C.S Lewis has written, the guy is unbelievable at articulating his thoughts.
5. Okay, I am going to quote C.S Lewis one more time and this directly relates to the issue of Jesus being God. Part of me wants explain the following in my own words b/c I’m afraid anyone reading might skip it over but he explains my thoughts more clearly.
But as soon as you look at any real Christian writings, you find that they are talking about something quite different from this popular religion. They say that Christ is the Son of God (whatever that means). They say that those who give Him their confidence can also become Sons of God (whatever that means). They say that His death saved us from our sins (whatever that means).
There is no good complaining that these statements are difficult. Christianity claims to be telling us about another world, about something behind the world we can touch and hear and see. You may think the claim false; but if it were true, what it tells us would be bound to be difficult-at least as difficult as modern Physics, and for the same reason.
Now the point in Christianity which gives us the greatest shock is the statement that by attaching ourselves to Christ, we can `become Sons of God'. One asks `Aren't we Sons of God already?