Did Jesus say he was God???

[1robin]

Originally Posted by Shermana

The Alpha and Omega in 1:11 is spurious and is only in the KJV and is either a copyist error or an outright interpolation. Are you a KJV-onlyist? Are you aware why it doesn't exist in the other versions?

I made at least a dozen claims in my post and you made one questionable response to only one 1 verse. How does that prove your case? It seems to be in additional versions than just the King James and it appears in all 18 major versions in other verses.

Webster's Bible Translation
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea
Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

This is ties in with Rev 1:8

New International Version (©1984)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

New Living Translation (©2007)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."
English Standard Version (©2001)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who this is about is obvious from Rev 1:7
Rev 1:7
New International Version (©1984)
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen
Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

And before you bring up Rev 22:13, that is the Father speaking through Jesus's Angel in that verse.

Once again you have adopted a position that seems to be contrary to the concensus commentary view.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
22:6-19 The Lord Jesus spake by the angel, solemnly confirming the contents of this book, particularly of this last vision. He is the Lord God faithful and true. Also by his messengers; the holy angels showed them to holy men of God. They are things that must shortly be done; Christ will come quickly, and put all things out of doubt.

Wesley's Notes

22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last - Who exist from everlasting to everlasting. How clear, incontestable a proof, does our Lord here give of his divine glory! Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
13. I am Alpha-Greek, ". the Alpha and the Omega." A, B, Vulgate, Syriac, Origen, and Cyprian transpose thus, "the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Andreas supports English Version. Compare with these divine titles assumed here by the Lord Jesus, Re 1:8, 17; 21:6. At the winding up of the whole scheme of revelation He announces Himself as the One before whom and after whom there is no God.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

[Shermana]

I made at least a dozen claims in my post and you made one questionable response to only one 1 verse.

That's the only verse I felt was needed to address at that moment, the others do a fine job of proving that Jesus is a separate person.

How does that prove your case? It seems to be in additional versions than just the King James and it appears in all 18 major versions in other verses.

All 18? Do you even bother to check?

Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

Let's see, does the NIV not count as a "major version" ? Even the Douay-Rheims gets this right. Young's does not always use the best manuscripts. Do you think its just some NWT thing?

JOHANNINE COMMA}

"You say that the NWT differs from ALL other translations in Rev. 1:11, but that's simply not true. In fact the NIV, NASB, NRSV, and NAB, just to name four, agree with the NWT in this verse. So why do you find it necessary to state a falsehood to criticize the NWT? This is pretty typical of the exaggeration of the NWT's difference from other translations that I hear all the time."-italics ours

Webster's Bible Translation
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea
Young's Literal Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last;' and, 'What thou dost see, write in a scroll, and send to the seven assemblies that are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.
Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

This is ties in with Rev 1:8

New International Version (©1984)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

New Living Translation (©2007)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."
English Standard Version (©2001)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Who this is about is obvious from Rev 1:7
Rev 1:7
New International Version (©1984)
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen
Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

That's not all 18 major versions. Try some honesty. Now look at 1:7 yourself, God is talking about Jesus as a separate being right before addressing himself as Alpha and Omega and this is a message from an Angel, like in 22:13 so its the Angel's message of the Father's words. Jesus himself speaks in 1:11, not through an Angel. Why does Jesus have revelation that "God gave him" anyway? Some manuscript writers went out of their way to include a spurious Alpha and Omega in 1:11 that doesn't make sense whatsoever in the context of 1:7-8 where it's used directly by the Father himself. Are you at least willing to admit that the the 1:11 issue is not as universally concrete as you think? Most Bible scholars agree it is in fact spurious, that's why so many translations don't include it. It was added as an interpolation. It's that simple. Why do you think the NIV and Douay Rheims discluded it? They're not exactly anti-Trinitarian. Do you also think 1 John 5:7 is authentic? As you can see, Rev 1:1-8 is the Father talking directly, and if he refers to Jesus as a separate person even after the resurrection then you know they're different beings by the intended context. Someone slipped in the Alpha and Omega in 1:11 in some manuscripts probably because they recognized that this distinction was being clearly made and wanted to "smooth things over" for the Trinitarian doctrine, a similar issue to 1 John 5:7. Are you a KJV-onlyist by chance? Where did you get the idea that "all 18 major versions" contain the addition? Only a few do and they are related to the KJV Textus Receptus movement.

Once again you have adopted a position that seems to be contrary to the concensus commentary view.

Most of my positions go against the consensus commentary view. If you want to base your opinions on what the consensus commentary view, then admit that it's the Protestant Evangelical consensus view. There are times however that these commentaries are useful in extracting the direct meaning of the physical text in terms of words, but they are often skewed in context.

See this speaker confusion issue. If you complain the source is biased without addressing it, you'll have to explain why your own sources aren't biased towards the Evangelical view.

Examining the Trinity: AO - Speaker Confusion

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title "Alpha and Omega" is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. "Alpha and Omega" as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most modern Bible scholars:

Even the KJV translators have shown by their use of the word "his" in verse 14 that they didn't mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing "His Commandments" (not "My Commandments")! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously notGod as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young's Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses "him."

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.


The only other use of the title "Alpha and Omega" confirms this understanding.
"And He who sits on the throne said, `Behold, I am making all things new.' .... And He said to me, `It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. .... He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.'" - Rev. 21:5-7, NASB

There's a difference between relying on commentary and relying on commentary that is entirely based on one tradition.

[URAVIP2ME]

God gives Jesus the Revelation [Rev. 1 v 1]

Jesus is never called as 'Almighty' but 'Mighty'. [Isaiah 9 v 6]

The Lord of Rev. [1 v 8] is 'Lord Almighty'. [El Shaddai]

God Almighty is the one saying to write at verse 11.

[1robin]

Originally Posted by Shermana

That's the only verse I felt was needed to address at that moment, the others do a fine job of proving that Jesus is a separate person.

He is a seperate person but a member of the same being.

All 18? Do you even bother to check?

Yep. I think you missed the qualifier where I said it appears in all 18 in other verses not the one you mentioned.New International Version(©1984)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
New Living Translation(©2007)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."
English Standard Version(©2001)
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
New American Standard Bible(©1995)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
International Standard Version(©2008)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," declares the Lord God, "the one who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
I am The Alap and The Tau, says THE LORD JEHOVAH God, he who is and has been and is coming, The Almighty.
GOD'S WORD® Translation(©1995)
"I am the A and the Z," says the Lord God, the one who is, the one who was, and the one who is coming, the Almighty.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
American King James Version
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, said the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
American Standard Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
Douay-Rheims Bible
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, saith the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Darby Bible Translation
I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
English Revised Version
I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, which is and which was and which is to come, the Almighty.
Webster's Bible Translation
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Weymouth New Testament
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "He who is and was and evermore will be--the Ruler of all." World English Bible
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Young's Literal Translation
'I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming -- the Almighty.'
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

Let's see, does the NIV not count as a "major version" ? Even the Douay-Rheims gets this right. Young's does not always use the best manuscripts. Do you think its just some NWT thing?

JOHANNINE COMMA}

That's not all 18 major versions. Try some honesty. Now look at 1:7 yourself, God is talking about Jesus as a separate being right before addressing himself as Alpha and Omega and this is a message from an Angel, like in 22:13 so its the Angel's message of the Father's words. Jesus himself speaks in 1:11, not through an Angel. Why does Jesus have revelation that "God gave him" anyway? Some manuscript writers went out of their way to include a spurious Alpha and Omega in 1:11 that doesn't make sense whatsoever in the context of 1:7-8 where it's used directly by the Father himself. Are you at least willing to admit that the the 1:11 issue is not as universally concrete as you think? Most Bible scholars agree it is in fact spurious, that's why so many translations don't include it. It was added as an interpolation. It's that simple. Why do you think the NIV and Douay Rheims discluded it? They're not exactly anti-Trinitarian. Do you also think 1 John 5:7 is authentic? As you can see, Rev 1:1-8 is the Father talking directly, and if he refers to Jesus as a separate person even after the resurrection then you know they're different beings by the intended context. Someone slipped in the Alpha and Omega in 1:11 in some manuscripts probably because they recognized that this distinction was being clearly made and wanted to "smooth things over" for the Trinitarian doctrine, a similar issue to 1 John 5:7. Are you a KJV-onlyist by chance? Where did you get the idea that "all 18 major versions" contain the addition? Only a few do and they are related to the KJV Textus Receptus movement.
Most of my positions go against the consensus commentary view. If you want to base your opinions on what the consensus commentary view, then admit that it's the Protestant Evangelical consensus view. There are times however that these commentaries are useful in extracting the direct meaning of the physical text in terms of words, but they are often skewed in context.

See this speaker confusion issue. If you complain the source is biased without addressing it, you'll have to explain why your own sources aren't biased towards the Evangelical view.

Examining the Trinity: AO - Speaker Confusion
There's a difference between relying on commentary and relying on commentary that is entirely based on one tradition.

I have lost track of this conversation and so can't quite see the relevance in your comments above. This is my fault as I am very busy at the moment but I did want to clarify the 18 versions issue.

[Shermana]

We're discussing 1:11. I already posted 1:11 with all those versions, but I'll repeat if it helps you stay on track.

Here is 1:8, which you just posted:

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

New International Version (©1984)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

What we're discussing however, is 1:11. I am not arguing that the Alpha and Omega doesn't exist in 1:8. You objected in #6478 that the Alpha and Omega is in all 18 versions of 1:11. So that means you should post 1:11, not 1:8. You said it "ties into 1:8", which I am disagreeing with, not what 1:8 says.

Revelation 1:11 which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."

New Living Translation (©2007)
It said, "Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

So I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just lost track in your attempt to prove that the Spurious Alpha and Omega exists in these versions in 1:11 when Jesus is the one directly talking which I just showed doesn't. It does not show up in the "18 major" versions but the KJV and some of its Derivatives and a few Evangelical versions. You are confusing it with 1:8.

[1robin]

Originally Posted by Shermana

We're discussing 1:11. I already posted 1:11 with all those versions, but I'll repeat if it helps you stay on track.

Here is 1:8, which you just posted:

Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
What we're discussing however, is 1:11. I am not arguing that the Alpha and Omega doesn't exist in 1:8. You objected in #6478 that the Alpha and Omega is in all 18 versions of 1:11. So that means you should post 1:11, not 1:8. You said it "ties into 1:8", which I am disagreeing with, not what 1:8 says.

Post 6478 isn't mine it is the Baha 'i guy's. My post was 6487 and I said this:

It seems to be in additional versions than just the King James and it appears in all 18 major versions in other verses.

I specifically said in the other verses. I am sorry I do not have any more time I will attempt to get caught up monday and I would suggest you do as well.

[Shermana]

Excuse me, I thought you meant to say that it was in more "verses" as in the "Verses in the version" than just the King James version since the subject itself was about 1:11 and not 1:8. If it doesn't show up in 1:11, then your comparison to 1:8 doesn't matter in the first place. Again, I don't disagree that it says this in 1:8. The fact that some verses spuriously interpolate the "Alpha and Omega" into verse 11 proves that there was in fact a concerted effort to put Trinitarian renditions in various places that didn't belong, like 1 John 5:7 and likely Matthew 28:19.

There are two different speakers in 1:8 and 1:11. Without the "Alpha and Omega" in 1:11, you cannot connect those speakers as the same being. Its spurious inclusions in the KJV proves that there was a likely effort to artificially connect them.

['mud]

I really wish that Jesus would have written something down,
other than playing criss-cross in the sand.
We'll not know now will we, and all this argument is for naught.
And the word of Paul is imbedded with invention,
along with Matthew being beset with poor memory.
The tax not paid, the word not given.
~
Not one word of proof did He give, in His own writing,
ahhhh...curse the stenographers..and their lying quills.
~
`mud

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by FearGod

Mohammed pbuh never claimed that he is god or compared himself to god,he is just a messenger and god's slave.

Yes Bahaullah claimed that he is god,and we don't believe that to be true,Jesus pbuh didn't claim himself to be god,but i guess that is a historical mistake done by human.

Your link about Sahl al-Tustari which i did never hear about his name before and i never heard about such hadith that Mohammed pbuh to compare himself with god,bahaullah is far different from our belief in Islam,in my opinion bahaullah is much close to hindusim than to islam,specially that Iran is close to India and to the east than the Abrahamic religion which is born in the Arabs & jews world.

At best Baha'u'llah appears to be an illuminati, one who bears witness of spiritual things. Without a doubt Baha'u'llah does not talk or act like God.

Jesus declared himself to be God by sying that He and the Father are one, so your statement that He never did is erroneous. I have never seen a shred of evidence that the Bile record has been significantly changed and you have provided none either.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by F0uad

Its from a Hadith that has no full chain of narration that is only seen Authentic by Bahai, kinda silly to promote your religion with blasphemous oral sayings?

O and you know the Quran better then Moi? Even the Bahai person didn't interpret Allah(swt) being incarnated.

Since you started this how would you interpret this:

(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things).


Or what about the Islamic creed (Tahweed)?:

Allah is Eternal; He has no beginning.
All the creations have a beginning. Allah created them.

Allah is Everlasting; He has no end.
It is mentally possible for all the creation to end.

The Attributes of Allah are eternal and everlasting; they have no beginning or end.
The attributes of the creation are created. They have a beginning and it is mentally possible for them to end.

The Attributes of Allah do not change, develop, or transform, because those processes belong to the attributes of the creation.
The attributes of the creation change, develop, and transform from one state to another, because Allah is their Creator.

Allah is the Creator of the world and what is in it. He is the Creator of good and evil. He is the Creator of the actions of the slaves, and He is their Sustainer.
The creations do not create good or evil. They do not create any of their actions. The one who cuts an apple is not able to put it back together as it was.

Allah is One with no partners to Him. He is One in His Self, Attributes, and Actions.
The creations are of many different shapes and colors. Even the same kind of fruit can be either sweet or sour. Yet the creations still resemble each other in many aspects.

Allah is not a body; He does not have a size, and does not occupy space.
The creations have sizes and places in which they reside.

Allah does not need the creation.
The creations are in need of their Creator; they are in need of Allah.

Allah is the only One Who deserves to be worshipped. No one is God but He.
The creations do not deserve to be worshipped, because they are weak and are in need of their Creator.

The creed of the Muslims is that Allah is unlike the creations. Imam al-Junayd, may Allah have mercy on him, said: “Tawhid is to differentiate between the Eternal and the created.”

My understanding of the Qu'ran comes from God. Where does your understanding come from?

Baha'is misinterpret the Bible the Qu'ran and the writings of the Baha'u'llah for the same reason ie their understanding doesn't come from God.

If you are talking in respect to Jesus, there is no-one like Him in speech and actions although some have tried to imitate Him.

True, but the Spirit of God in Jesus is eternal. The person of Jesus is characterized by His indwelling spirit. Without a spirit a body is just an animal.

This is correct. When Jesus says He and the Father are one He is not attributing Himself as a partner of God but as God Himself. When the Paraclete comes, He does not act as a partner but as a master.

This is correct. God is spirit. Jesus is a man with the Spirit of God resident.

That is the way it should be as long as you remember that in Jesus the eternal and creation exist together as one person.