Did Jesus say he was God??? (moral, Earth, Messiah, virgin)

[JayHawes]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Of course my argument is faith based.

It was you who brought up the notion that Bahai succession of authority is unclear.

Love is also the basis of the law in the Bahai Faith.

COmmentary can easily be scripture, it certainly is in the TaNakh. The hadith are nothing but commentary, yet many consider them equal to the Qur'an.

None of this changes the fact that Paul has as much authority as the individual is willing to grant him. He has no claim for more.

If the Gospel were the sum of the New Testament, things would be clearer, not muddier. The reason the waters are muddy is the assumption of authority where none really existed.

Let Christ speak for Himself. He was certainly capaqble of it.

Regards,
Scott

Baha'i is almost like any other world faith. A man rises ups, claims revelation, dies and his teachings are carried on. The only difference is, Baha'i's founder incorporated the ideas of many faiths that preceded it. Making it much different than any other faith. But let me add....Jesus is the only founder of a faith, to die for those who didn't know them, just so they could go to heaven.

[arthra]

I've sort of been following this discussion and really am not offering any arguments here about "Jesus being God"... The Baha'i view is that Jesus perfectly reflected the attributes of God, but i wanted to comment on the statement by Lunamoth above where she wrote to Scott:

"I know you are sympathetic to the Arian view, as it is the same as the Baha'i view of Jesus. I also agree that what was done politically to uphold the doctrine of the Trinity, any cases where people were persecuted or killed for seeing it differently, was blasphemous. But the Baha'i Faith of course does the same thing to covenant breakers and people a bit too vocal about views that differ from the authoritative view. However, this whole discussion is off-point."

I think that may be inaccurate and misrepresent the Baha'i view of Jesus.. stating that the Baha'i view of Jesus is Arian, also, the term "covenant breaker" has a special meaning that may not be appreciated or undersood very well in general parlance and relates to those who attack the authority of the central institutions of our Faith more than it does to doctrinal discussions, but this article may be of interest to some of you:

http://bahai-library.com/file.php5?f...nguage=English

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Of course my argument is faith based.

It was you who brought up the notion that Bahai succession of authority is unclear.

It is as clear as the authority given to the Church.

Love is also the basis of the law in the Bahai Faith.

That is a whole other thread.

COmmentary can easily be scripture, it certainly is in the TaNakh. The hadith are nothing but commentary, yet many consider them equal to the Qur'an.

But Baha'is also reject the hadith, except where directly upheld by Baha'u'llah.

None of this changes the fact that Paul has as much authority as the individual is willing to grant him. He has no claim for more.

This is true of the Gospels, the Baha'i Writings, all scripture, all cases where authority is evident.

If the Gospel were the sum of the New Testament, things would be clearer, not muddier. The reason the waters are muddy is the assumption of authority where none really existed.

I don't think Paul had authority to write law, and if you ask Christians they will also say (most anyway) that Paul did not write new laws. Jesus gave us only one new commandment: love each other as He loves us. That's it. That's the authority. Yes...ALL the rest is commentary. All the rest of the Gospels point to this one idea. The teachings, the actions, the death and the resurrection all point to this one thing: Love. And this is what Paul teaches too: we are not under the law, but free in the love of Christ.

Let Christ speak for Himself. He was certainly capaqble of it.

He certainly is:

Originally Posted by John 10

22 Then came the Festival of Dedication [b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods" ' [d]? 35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. 40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed 41 and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true." 42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

The Gospels and rest of the NT are part of the Tradition of the Church, the same Church which developed the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. If you reject those doctrines, you need to explain when the Holy Spirit stopped guiding the Church.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It is as clear as the authority given to the Church.

That is a whole other thread.


But Baha'is also reject the hadith, except where directly upheld by Baha'u'llah.

This is true of the Gospels, the Baha'i Writings, all scripture, all cases where authority is evident.

I don't think Paul had authority to write law, and if you ask Christians they will also say (most anyway) that Paul did not write new laws. Jesus gave us only one new commandment: love each other as He loves us. That's it. That's the authority. Yes...ALL the rest is commentary. All the rest of the Gospels point to this one idea. The teachings, the actions, the death and the resurrection all point to this one thing: Love. And this is what Paul teaches too: we are not under the law, but free in the love of Christ.



He certainly is:






The Gospels and rest of the NT are part of the Tradition of the Church, the same Church which developed the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity. If you reject those doctrines, you need to explain when the Holy Spirit stopped guiding the Church.

The words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. The traditions of the church are tradition.
The two are not necessarily the same.

The words of Christ do not claim divinity. God is in me and I am in God as well. To say thqt does n ot claim divinity.

To say He is one with the Father seems to mean that He is one in purpose and one speech; neither does that claim divinity.

Hadith is as hadith does, Ep[istles do as epistles do. They aren't Revelation. They are tradition and tradition is not infallible.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. The traditions of the church are tradition.
The two are not necessarily the same.

Regards,
Scott

We only know the words of Jesus because of Tradition. If you don't trust Tradition you also can't trust that Jesus said those words.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. The traditions of the church are tradition.
The two are not necessarily the same.

The words of Christ do not claim divinity. God is in me and I am in God as well. To say thqt does n ot claim divinity.

To say He is one with the Father seems to mean that He is one in purpose and one speech; neither does that claim divinity.

As you say Scott, we all get to choose what those words mean.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

Your interpretation of these verses is that Jesus is not God. Yes, that is an interpretation, just as my interpretation is that Jesus is God.

I didn't have to because he shows us in these verses that he isn't God. The "Son of God" is clearly different than "God the son"

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


This verse goes hand in hand with this one.

John 6:38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

okay...okay...maybe it's just me that thinks Jesus isn't God....apparently Jesus believed it too.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

We interpret everything we read, even if we do so literally, that is still a literal INTERPRETATION. It's not something you can avoid.

I agree with you here but I disagree with you that I interperted the passages to say he wasn't God. There was no need to do that. He said God sent him to do, not his will, but the will of God. He says this over and over...He said he was commanded by God to say the things he did.....The holy spirit decended upon Jesus and (God spoke from the heavens)

Matt
3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

Christ's command to honor Him just as we honor the Father.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

Iknow you don't worship Jesus Christ, as He commanded and as so many who personally met Him did.

I believe honoring and worshiping are two seperate acts. I believe it to mean to (respect)

I you take that verse to mean that you would worship Jesus then keep doing what you do.

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

I think it does.

So are we all here to understand that the only way for us to understand Jesus is for us to be christians????

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

Disciples who believed Jesus was God.

What verses show the deciples considered Jesus (God)?

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

If you accept that their quotations of Jesus are accurate, then you cannot avoid also accepting their interpretations of the quotes they themselves provide as accurate. Now, if Jesus' disciples who were taught directly by Him, traveled with Him, ate with Him, slept with Him, talked with Him, worshipped Him and believed He was God, and you don't, what does that tell you?

Come on now. If you seriously believed they believed he was God then bring forth the biblical quotes.

[neves]

Here are some more verses in the Bible to contemplate… (King James Version)

Deuteronomy 6 (note: not whole passage, first 10 verses)

“1Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.
3Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.
10And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not,”

Mark 12 (note: not whole passage, 5 lines before and after relative verse)

“24And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
25For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
26And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.”

Mark 10 (note: not whole passage, 5 lines before and after relative verse)

“13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
16And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.
17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! “