Did Jesus say he was God??? (moral, Earth, Messiah, virgin)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by roli

You are entitled to your postion that they are only one in purpose, but maybe that is because you don't have an understanding of what it means to be in Christ.

Well the proof was right there. It's amazing how people tell you how you don't understand something that really isn't that hard to understand. There was no mystery in his statement.....and then he clarified it later in the same book of John. Not only did he mean one in purpose...when you examine the greek that was used by the writer of John it means exactly that.

Originally Posted by roli

I don't know if you have ever seen a branch from another tree grafted into a wild tree and watching them two becoming one and I might add more than in purpose .

And that proves what???

It is obvious there are TWO distinct and separate trees. The branch from one tree and the other tree receiving the graft. YOU as the sole controller are implementing the grafting process. This really wasn't a good analogy.

Originally Posted by roli

"In purpose" is a very vague conclusion and you can accept that limited position with Christ if you will.

It's not vague. If you think so then take it up with Yeshua and God. It was Yeshua that explained they were one in purpose. You just misunderstood what he said is all.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by R W Blu

If an apple falls from a tree and is allowed to gestate, pray tell what will it become? Jesus is God in the same manner in which you are your fathers son, thus among one of His titles we find that He is referred to as the "prince of peace", not social or political peace but "spiritual". Jesus being in the form of human indeed was much like the apple, he was limited by what he was, "human", the scriptures declare as much, he was not a divine being "playing" at being human, but indeed was human --l John 1:1-4. But, Jesus was the Word made flesh -- John 1:1-4, 10-14. But he was human, he experienced a normal human birth -- Matthew 1:18-25. At 8 days of age he was circumcised in the Jewish tradition -- Luke 2:21. And he grew as a human child -- Luke 2:40. He increased in wisdom and stature -- Luke 2:52. Jesus the man was not unlike other men in appearance -- Isaiah 53:1-3. He experienced normal human needs and desires, hunger -- Matthew 4:2, thirst -- John 19:28, exhaustion -- John 4:6, pain l Peter 3:18, John 18:1-34. He was made a little lower than the angels -- Hebrew 2:7. Jesus was tempted in all points, just as is every man -- Hebrew 4:15. The apostle wrote about the humanity of Jesus -- l Tim. 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

But, because Jesus was made human by design, this did not take away from his position of being considered and worshiped as God, his right by being the Son of God, the only begotten of the Father -- John chapter one. He was born of a virgin and conceived of the Holy Spirit -- Matthew 1:20. Writing of the Christ while in the flesh, the apostle Paul declared, "For in Him dwelleth the fullness of the "GODHEAD" bodily." -- Col. 2:9. When Jesus was born, He had the special title "SON" -- Hebrews 1:3-14. Hence He was worshiped by the angels -- Hebrews 1:6. And the scriptures clearly state that angels "are not" to worship mere mortal men -- Acts 10:25-26. Jesus acknowledged His "Sonship" -- John 10:29,36. The Jews' understood that Jesus was claiming to be "deity" because they considered it blasphemy, "because, that thou, being a man, makest thyself God -- John 10:33.

There is no other conclusion to be drawn form the scriptures than to conclude that Jesus was concurrently....both man and God. And in fact, history actual speaks for the physical evidence of such, for indeed if this were a false religion and not found to be real and favorable in the sight of God, pray tell how could this faith have grown from slightly over a dozen people to include the Messiah Himself to engulf 1/3 of the worlds total population? It would have come to nothing and made non-effect if it did not hold the blessings and promises of God Almighty, who indeed promised not to have His words corrupted -- Ps. 12:6-7.

Does anyone play at being human. I find myself in a human body with a human spirit not because I thought it would be fun but because the human body is the vehicle God has created to receive my spirit. How can you say that God is playing at being human when Jesus has expressed His purpose for His incarnation and it was not to have fun.
The reality remains. God has the appearance of humanity because of His incarnation but He doesn't have a human spirit so, he is not fully human. All the rest of us are human souls but Jesus is the God Soul.

This is a troubling verse for those who view the omni-presence of God to preclude it. However I have tried pointing out to them before that God is not separated into parts, He is one. In that context the verse makes more sense.

Thank you! This verse definitely adds to my list.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"If an apple falls from a tree and is allowed to gestate, pray tell what will it become? "

It won't become the tree which dropped it. The question is not relevant both apples and apple trees are part of God's Creation. God is not part of Creation, He is the Creator.

Regards,
Scott

In this you are correct. The body of Jesus can't be equated with God because it is a creation. However God breathed a spirit into Adam and it became a living soul. In Jesus God breathed His own spirit into the body and it became the living soul of God.
you can call that a manifestation of God if you like but then we are just manifestations of our spirit as well. There is no loss of identity in incarnation. My spirit defines who I am and God's spirit defines who He is.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Muffled

In this you are correct. The body of Jesus can't be equated with God because it is a creation. However God breathed a spirit into Adam and it became a living soul. In Jesus God breathed His own spirit into the body and it became the living soul of God.
you can call that a manifestation of God if you like but then we are just manifestations of our spirit as well. There is no loss of identity in incarnation. My spirit defines who I am and God's spirit defines who He is.

Look, It was Yeshua who showed he existed in heaven and was separate from God. He showed this twice in your scripture.

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

If he was in heaven before coming here then he had no "physical" body. If he says he came neither of himself but his god sent him then he is showing you that he himself is not God. He was sent by his god.

Your interpretation is that God and Yeshua are not separate nor do they have separate wills but Yeshua says they do so plainly in these two verses. Yeshua was in heaven separately from his god. His god sent him....

In order to be sent there must be a sender.

[J_R]

Originally Posted by Muffled

Is Jesus God in the flesh?

Simple.

If you believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then he is.

If you do not believe Jesus is God in the flesh, then he is not.

[YmirGF]

So, from this thread, I think we can conclude that no one can conclusively prove that Jesus was or was not God.

Next topic.

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

So, from this thread, I think we can conclude that no one can conclusively prove that Jesus was or was not God.

Next topic.

I guess not........

I figured John 17:3 would have been sufficient but I suppose not.

No matter how much the scripture show Yeshua not to be God I guess we're gonna have to hear it from his lips......It would appear that interpretations run a muck here....

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true god, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU have sent.

"YOU are the "ONLY" true "god"......and I (Yeshua) am the Messiah (Blessed ambassador who speaks on your behalf)...whom YOU have sent.

I guess that's not good enough....or......

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."



I guess these aren't clear either.....Seems we are at an impasse......

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Dirty Penguin

Look, It was Yeshua who showed he existed in heaven and was separate from God. He showed this twice in your scripture.

John 6:38
For I (Yeshua) have come down from heaven, not to do My own (Separate) will, but the will of Him (My god) who sent me”

John 8:42................ I (Yeshua) proceeded and came forth from God; I (Yeshua) came not of my (Yeshua) own accord, but he (God) sent me”

Another KJV renders it like this;

"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me."

If he was in heaven before coming here then he had no "physical" body. If he says he came neither of himself but his god sent him then he is showing you that he himself is not God. He was sent by his god.

Your interpretation is that God and Yeshua are not separate nor do they have separate wills but Yeshua says they do so plainly in these two verses. Yeshua was in heaven separately from his god. His god sent him....

In order to be sent there must be a sender.

You have not proved this statment.

This is not the case.

Your addition of the name Yeshua is spurious. There was not an entity named Jesus until Mary named her child Jesus. Such an entity could not have existed in Heaven. Since Jesus is speaking using first person singular (I), it must be concluded that He identified Himself as having come down from Heaven. Heaven only has spirits and Jesus did not descend from Heaven bodily. There is no indication that He is a separate spirit from God.

Again you have added in the word separate because it is not there in the verse. Jesus is not stating that He has His own will but the exact opposite that His will is God's will.


I can agree with that statement however God is capable of sending Himself. It is due to His omnipresence that He can do it. What is impossible with men is possible with God. You are trying to make God fit into a human mold and it can't be done.