Paul - False Apostle & First 'christian' (Jesus, mission, experience)

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Try reading the scriptures.

Actually I do read the scriptures and that is why I'm posing the questions this way. My main Question....Which so far no one has answered....is if you believe that the "commandment" Yeshua gave to love one another is all that is needed then what authority was given to nullify the other commandments or to be selective as to which commandments would be followed.

Yeshua never went into any sort of detail as to what should or should not be followed so on who's authority was it to select which laws should and should not be followed?

So far there is nothing in the 4 gospels from Yeshua to nullify any of the laws. I have good reason to believe Paul was instrumental in voiding the laws. The difference between to two is Yeshua explicitly says to follow all the laws and you should not break any, not even the smallest of the laws. In Paul's writings he splinters. Paul at one point cites the law and says women should remain silent in the church and are not allowed to speak, they should be submissive but in another breath says the law of circumcision or uncircumcision has no value...the only thing that does is love.

So where did Yeshua nullify the law of circumcision if he says that all the laws should be followed? I'm finding there are some differences in what Yeshua taught and what Paul taught.

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Jesus gave us but ONE commandment to follow:

John 13:34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."NIV

It appears he gave this in conjunction with the rest of the laws. I can find no place where he nullified any of the old laws. Giving a new commandment does not mean the others are null and void. Additionally this "new commandment" was not really a new commandment. The Old Testament Law in Leviticus is really similar to this one.

Leviticus 19:18
"Never seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

Jesus said "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yep and three verses before this verse.... Yeshua commanded his followers to obey all the laws...even the smallest ones.

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.

18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.

19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

It did not say we would be known by how (and which) we keep the commands: but by our LOVE. Nothing else.

And yet there is no mention in the 4 gospels where Yeshua said you did not need to follow the laws nor is there in place in the 4 gospels where he defined which of the laws to follow or not. Only the contrary.......This shift of following the law to not following the law was the work of Paul.

[Scuba Pete]

You are stuck on "nullified". Jesus nullified squat, nada zilch.

However he FULFILLED the ENTIRE LAW. Now, for a great read on what this means to YOU, crack open Romans, 5,6 and 7. You don't have to pick and choose anymore: ALL OF THEM were Fulfilled when Jesus died. You do believe that he died, right? How do you deal with Galatians 5? For freedom you were set free!

[Dirty Penguin]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

You are stuck on "nullified". Jesus nullified squat, nada zilch.

Great so we both agree that he didn't nullify any of the commandments

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

However he FULFILLED the ENTIRE LAW.

And I think this is where the split comes in for us. You see it as completed but I see it as he sealed it. Meaning no more laws were to come and as he said...the laws would remain in effect until the end.

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

You don't have to pick and choose anymore

So there's no more need to observe the sabbath on Saturday?


Where is it written in the four gospels Yeshua said the laws need not be observed? I gather Paul taught a completely different agenda to gentile pagans who weren't going to submit to those 613 laws.

How does one say in one breath you don't have to pick and choose considering it was Yeshua who said......

Matthew 5:18-19
18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved.

19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

He said none of these laws were going anywhere . You should follow them and not break them, not even the smallest one nor shall you teach any one else to break them. But any one who obeys the law(s) will be blessed.

Look, this is obviously my opinion on it. Christians will believe they way they have always believed. I think Paul is responsible for "setting aside" the law. I don't think that had anything to do with Yeshua considering (Matt. 5:19-18). This is why I asked that if you believe Yeshua "completed" the law then on who's authority was it to say which ones would or would not be followed. You say there's not need to pick and choose but obviously some of the laws still remain in effect by christians today.

[Scuba Pete]

The departure from the "written law" was prophesied in the OT.

Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. NIV

Now let's power forward to the discussion of this very same passage in the NT:

Hebrews 9:11 When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. NIV


All this is moot for YOU, if you believe Paul to be a false Apostle. I have yet to see any convincing evidence of that contention. But again, the OT propecies about this and Hebrews refers to that in Chapter 10.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Scuba Pete

All this is moot for YOU, if you believe Paul to be a false Apostle. I have yet to see any convincing evidence of that contention. But again, the OT propecies about this and Hebrews refers to that in Chapter 10.

Well said Pete!

Take this, all of you, and drink from it:
this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
It will be shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven.
Do this in memory of me.
Luke 22:20