Is Christianity that bad? (ritual, homosexual, church, experience, abortion)

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by Francine

If we go down the literal path, Jesus is bread (John 6:48-51), a cornerstone (Acts 4:8-12; Ephesians 2:19-22), a door (John 10:7), a lamb (John 1:29), a light (John 1:9), a ransom (1 Timothy 2:6), and a vine (John 15:1-6).

Please. Nobody in the world is that literal, and you know it. Literalism is the belief that the scriptures are factual, not the belief that they never use a figure of speech.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by PureX

It IS all Catholicism. That's my point. Catholicism isn't just what YOU think or say it is. Catholicism includes all those who call themselves Catholics, and who followed the Catholic creeds of their time, whether you agree with their interpretation of those creeds or not. Catholicism includes those popes who had wives and concubines and sex with little boys. Catholicism includes those priests and cardinals and bishops who tortured and murdered people out of blind superstition and a lust to exercise their own power. Catholicism includes the mass murder and enslavement of entire cultures for the sake of greed (but done in the name of salvation, of course). Those Catholics were Catholics, too, whether you agree with their idea of Catholicism or not. They were Catholics because they believed they were Catholics, and because they were following the Catholic dogma of their day. Just as you are, now. They're as much Catholic as you or anyone else.

Catholics have done great evil in the name of Catholicism, and that must be acknowledged to ensure that they won't do so again. But they have also done great good, and are doing great good even today, and that should be acknowledged as well. And I don't believe that it is acknowledged as it should be. I think we tend to only look at the atrocities of the past, and overlook all the good things they do, today.

But I also think you're wrong to keep trying to pretend that the atrocities of the past were somehow done by "false Catholics". It's simply not true, and it promotes the same kind of arrogant denial that allowed those Catholics of the past to become such monsters. The best way of guarding against it happening again, is to remember that it happened before, and that it was Catholics "just like us" that did it. And so it's Catholics, "just like us" that could potentially do it again. As a result, we have to be especially vigilant not to fall into that illusion of divine arrogance. (I was using the "we" to make a universal point, as I am no longer a Catholic, myself.)

I wasn’t questioning whether they were Catholic or even if they were true ones, but whether their acts were in accordance with Catholicism. I very much doubt you’d produce anything other then “well they interpreted it that way and they have the right to do so”. It’s a very weak argument at best. There are letters specifically from the past Popes (even by the ones that were around during the Crusades) condemning such acts. So I really don’t give a flying monkey whether they can interpret as they wish (we all do). They don’t have a leg to stand on. Besides, I’d be willing to bet that many of them knew they weren’t acting in accordance to Church creed; especially since the Pope was writing public warnings to stop such acts. Just as Catholics today know very well where the Magisterium stands on abortion. Would you say Catholicism believes in abortion because some Catholics do have them?

I don’t have a problem with you saying Catholics have done great evil; I’ll gladly join you in condemning it. But if you are going to do so be aware of whether the action of any catholic aligns itself to our creeds/doctrines.

Remember, Christ no where gurantees that His Church will be impeccable (He himself picked Judas), simply that His truth would be maintained consistantly.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by Victor

I wasn’t questioning whether they were Catholic or even if they were true ones, but whether their acts were in accordance with Catholicism. I very much doubt you’d produce anything other then “well they interpreted it that way and they have the right to do so”. It’s a very weak argument at best. There are letters specifically from the past Popes (even by the ones that were around during the Crusades) condemning such acts. So I really don’t give a flying monkey whether they can interpret as they wish (we all do). They don’t have a leg to stand on. Besides, I’d be willing to bet that many of them knew they weren’t acting in accordance to Church creed; especially since the Pope was writing public warnings to stop such acts. Just as Catholics today know very well where the Magisterium stands on abortion. Would you say Catholicism believes in abortion because some Catholics do have them?

I don’t have a problem with you saying Catholics have done great evil; I’ll gladly join you in condemning it. But if you are going to do so be aware of whether the action of any catholic aligns itself to our creeds/doctrines.

Remember, Christ no where gurantees that His Church will be impeccable (He himself picked Judas), simply that His truth would be maintained consistantly.

We are mostly in agreement. I was not blaming scripture at any point. Nor was I blaming Christ. I was speaking of people's interpretation of these, and that over the centuries these interpretations have produced both evil, and good. And I think we agree, too, that a sinning Catholic is still a Catholic, including the recent and current "sin" within the Catholic church of excusing and covering up pedophilia among priests. If Catholics are only Catholic when they are not sinning, then there aren't going to be very many Catholics around ... obviously.

But we shouldn't focus only on the sins of Catholics and Catholicism, either, or presume the whole denomination evil simply because some evil was done in it's name at some points in the past and present. What organization doesn't have some evil done in it's name if it's been around for a long time? Let's be fair.

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Somkid

My point was and is:

1. By any objective moral standard, the fictional deity of the Old Testament is stone evil - genocidal, vain, vindictive and vengeful.

This is a short sighted and narrow view... God gives us our life and takes it away. We are all going to die. God is justified in determining when and how.

Originally Posted by Somkid

2. The Bible approves the following actions as the highest moral values:
Genocide, Slavery, Rape, Child rape/abuse, Ritual human sacrifice, The murder of innocents,The killing of “false prophets” and unbelievers and so on.

Please site examples of rape, child abuse and ritual human sacrifice commanded in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Somkid

3. The Bible commands believers to put atheists and non-believers to death, both in the Old and New Testaments. The fact that most Christians and Jews do not follow these commandments does not excuse their continued allegiance to evil doctrines. You're responsible for being a Nazi even if you don't want to kill Jews.

Please site examples of how the New Testament commands us to put atheists to death.

Originally Posted by Somkid

4. In 22 years of debating people, I have never once seen a Christian reject his superstition based on the evil nature of its doctrines.

Please site an example of something "evil" in the Christian Covenant.

Originally Posted by Somkid

5. Religions based on the Bible and the like have nothing to do with morality or truth, but rather are mere superstitious conformity based on fear of social disapproval and pompous self-righteousness.

Do you not see anything positive in the Bible? Have you actual read it?

Originally Posted by Somkid

6. "Faith" is a synonym for prejudice willed belief in the direct opposition of reason and evidence.

Faith is not in opposition of reason and evidence-- What is your evidence that the Christian God does not exist?

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Somkid

I don't have any Christian friends oddly enough because the Christians I know from professional relationships in the past do as the Bible demands and never associated with me out side of work and I live currently live in Thailand where less than 1% of the population is Christian and they live in mud huts on the mountains with missionaries.

Then how can you say you really understand the Christian life? This explains a lot.

[Somkid]

Originally Posted by Nick Soapdish

This is a short sighted and narrow view... God gives us our life and takes it away. We are all going to die. God is justified in determining when and how.



Please site examples of rape, child abuse and ritual human sacrifice commanded in the Bible.



Please site examples of how the New Testament commands us to put atheists to death.



Please site an example of something "evil" in the Christian Covenant.



Do you not see anything positive in the Bible? Have you actual read it?



Faith is not in opposition of reason and evidence-- What is your evidence that the Christian God does not exist?

Obviously you haven't read or understood anything I have posted however for your benefit I will do it one more time. I'm really losing interest at a rapid rate because it is necessary for me to defend the obvious and it is like explaining color to a blind man you just can't see through your prejudice and superstition. You keep asking me to explain the same things over and over yet you have no valid point or anything interesting to add to the conversation. For more quotes and commentary check out
The Dark Bible written and compiled by Jim Walker. If you have anymore questions I suggest you ask Jim he is quick with a personal response and an expert in this matter.
The Dark Bible: Contents



Ritual human sacrifice

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)


Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)

Child Sacrifice

And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.



Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

[Nick Soapdish]

Originally Posted by Somkid

Obviously you haven't read or understood anything I have posted however for your benefit I will do it one more time. I'm really losing interest at a rapid rate because it is necessary for me to defend the obvious and it is like explaining color to a blind man you just can't see through your prejudice and superstition.

I apologize if I offended you, that was not my intent.

You keep asking me to explain the same things over and over yet you have no valid point or anything interesting to add to the conversation.

Yes, it is much easier to attack someone else's statements and ideas than to defend your own. I understand this.

For more quotes and commentary check out
The Dark Bible written and compiled by Jim Walker. If you have anymore questions I suggest you ask Jim he is quick with a personal response and an expert in this matter.
The Dark Bible: Contents

This explains a lot. You associate with anti-Christian propoganda and websites and you do not know any Christians personally. No wonder you are so anti-Christian.

You think your perspective of Christianity is correct, yet you do not seem to be interested in actually asking and trying to understand what we believe.

Do you not realize the amount of charity that goes out from Christian organizations and the amount of hope and solace Christianity brings? Why would you attack Christianity so aggressively?

I hope you get a more normalized view of Christianity. You think your view is obvious, yet it completely is contrary to my view, as a Christian and one that knows many other Christians. Who has the better perspective?

Ritual human sacrifice

[The Lord speaking] "The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel." (Joshua 7:15 NLT)

At the LORD's command, a man of God from Judah went to Bethel, and he arrived there just as Jeroboam was approaching the altar to offer a sacrifice. Then at the LORD's command, he shouted, "O altar, altar! This is what the LORD says: A child named Josiah will be born into the dynasty of David. On you he will sacrifice the priests from the pagan shrines who come here to burn incense, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT)

Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble; (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)

I am not a Catholic and do not know anything about the book of Wisdom....

As far as the Joshua reference, this is not human sacrifice... that is a distortion on your part.

Your reference to 1 Kings is also distorted... it was not a ceremonial sacrifice, as you implied, but is fulfilled in 2 Kings 13:15-20. They were killed by arrows.

Child Sacrifice

And this became a hidden trap for mankind, because men, in bondage to misfortune or to royal authority, bestowed on objects of stone or wood the name that ought not to be shared. Afterward it was not enough for them to err about the knowledge of God, but they live in great strife due to ignorance, and they call such great evils peace. For whether they kill children in their initiations, or celebrate secret mysteries, or hold frenzied revels with strange customs… (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV) The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.

Once again, I do not recognize or follow the book of Wisdom.

Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Again, another distortion. Such is the way of propoganda. Where is the rape in the verses?

Also where are the NT references you claimed? That is the covenant I follow... not the ones of the OT.

Finally, you never answered the question if there is anything of value in the Bible.

[Somkid]

I don't even want to get into my credentials because this is the internet and... well whatever anyone can say anything. I understand Christianity very well I have a great deal of experience with it good and bad. I gave you plenty of resources to look up what I have said because I don't think this is the place to write a thesis on the matter. As far as being anti-Christian that's not true at all I'm not anti anyone I just like to see a little logic applied when some one makes a grand statement I mean is it so much to ask that someone backs something up with a little philosophy; saying "oh I don't read that part of the bible" is a cop out. I currently have no perspective on Christians as I live in a country where Christians make up less than 1% of the population and most of them are missionaries tromping around in the mountains with refuges from other countries, I have very limited contact with them to say the least.

People believe what they want to believe even it it defies logic because it makes them feel better and there is nothing you can say or do to convince them it is irrational. As far as answering the original question yes, I did a long time ago it just seems anytime I post an answer I am asked to justify myself (which is fair) but it goes on and on and borders the ridicules. There is tons of information on the internet about the bible and what it says it is not propaganda it is quite true I have opened up the bible and read along. At this point I believe this post is getting out of control and becoming a complete waste of everyones time and it is getting way off topic. If you seriously have any questions about what I'm saying PM them to me and I'll be happy to answer them.