Chrisitans: The Trinity vs Godhead and Justice vs Mercy (Jesus Christ, salvation)

[astarath]

Preceding not post. All those atrocities occured after the truths of the Holy See had been taught to it's adherents. If the See is truly God's representative on Earth then would it not be infallable and void of sin? Can the Holy See approve an act of sin as righteous? Today there may be those who will think outside the limitations of these truths and find God for themselves on a personal level and come as an individual into the body not as a mold of Vatican Truths

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Would you explain, please, how three distinct personages can be a single indivisible essense? And what, incidentally, do you mean by the word "essence"? Nobody has ever been able to define that word so that it makes sense to me.

How? By saying, "I and my Father are one?"

Good question.

As has the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

Yeah, for almost 2000 years. Not quite, though. Let's see, the Nicene Creed didn't exist until 325 A.D. I guess that would make Jesus' Apostles heretics. Or do you know of some statements they made to indicate that they believed the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were an indivisible substance without body parts or passions?

I do not know how you could not understand what essence really is. Most dictionaries describe it and the Catholic theology classes I take have a definition of it. Here it is:

Essense-"what a thing is........essense is substance" I think I can describe to you the definition of the Trinity,. God is one(and only One) and unique in his infinite substance or nature but is three discticnt persons. Father Son and Holy Spirit.

God's divine nature cannot be fully grasp by mere human intellect although we can understand certain aspects about it when he allows us. He allowed us to understand the Trinity, the oneness of God in the Threeness of Persons . There are not Three separate Gods that would be Tritheism and not monotheism. They are united powerfully by supernatural ways and divine love that we cannot fully comprehend in this life.

Just because something was not officially defined yet does not mean it was not taught. Read the early christains and the early Liturgies!The Trintiy has been part of oral apostolic Tradition(the Or4al word of God) way before the Council of Nicea. This is Apostolic in nature. And when people began to deny it the Church recognized that they were out of line with historic Christian tradition and scripture and condemned the Heresies of Arius and the Macedonians. Christ is eternal God himself with no beginnig and no end consubstantial/homoousia to the Father is alluded in Johns Gospel and the book of Hebrews and made explicit in Tradition(the oral word of God).. abnd then when heresies arose we declared it officially but it was always taught in its root form as the scripture and fathers prove.

[kmkemp]

Originally Posted by 123

so my missionary friend

ill make my stand clear! im a muslim.....

1:there is not an unequivocal statement in the entire bible tht jesus says 'i am god' or says 'worship me' i challenge u.....................

2:in ur catacism u say the father is almighty,the son is almighty, the holy ghost is almighty but they r not 3 almighty's but 1 almighty it continues the father is a person , the son is a person and the holy ghost is a person but they r not 3 prsons but 1 person......

my question to u wat makes one a person?? his personality...well if i happen to be one of the identical triplets and if i say tht one of my brothers commit murder can someone hang me for tht????why not, we all look alike...so i answer because we all have a different personality.....

u say u beleive in 1 god but eventually have a mental picture of 3 god's.........
for u the father is above sitting on the universe as his footstool and the heaven as his canopy.......
the son is a handsome young man something like u saw in the king of king's or as jeffrey hunter, you know not one having a croocked jewish nose....
and the holy ghost as something like a dove tht came upon during baptism........

and as hard as u try u can never overlap or superimpose all 3 images as 1

3:
i wonder if uve heard of the late ahmed deedat!!!

firstly the bible is said to have severe errors(said by the 32 scholars of highest emminence backed by 50 denominations)
they arent muslims,hindus or even jews but pure christians who r scholars in their own religion......................they say it's not even obligatory for one to beleive in trinity...tht's why the word 'trinity' is flipped frm the new version of the bible.........


i ve provided u with irrefutable evidence........try disproving any of my points

please take it in the write spirit ...i dont want to insult just bring people to the truth....

If you cannot fathom how 3 persons can be one essence, then you probably shouldn't be making a proof that relies on your ignorance, or, perhaps, unwillingness to understand.

[Darkness]

Jesus is the Messiah and Father is God. I still haven't been able to figure out if Jesus is supposed to be Divine or simply a Man. I guess it depends on which New Testament texts you read (The Gospel of John is the only one that really says Jesus is God/Divine, as far as I am aware). The Holy Spirit is their spirit. It is not an individual person/being.

2 Corinthians 11:31 (King James Version)
The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore...

Mark 10:18 (New International Version)
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone."

Originally Posted by kmkemp

If you cannot fathom how 3 persons can be one essence, then you probably shouldn't be making a proof that relies on your ignorance, or, perhaps, unwillingness to understand.

Define the words "person" and "essence." Do you mean individual consciousness by person? It seems to me that three persons, one essence supports the Mormon idea of the Godhead. There are Three Persons made out of the same God-stuff (essence).

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by 123

1:there is not an unequivocal statement in the entire bible tht jesus says 'i am god' or says 'worship me' i challenge u.....................

It recently dawned on me that when people say the Bible does not teach the Trinity, they might mean at least two completely different things:

1 - The Bible does not teach the Trinity = the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God.
OR
2 - The Bible does not teach the Trinity = while the Bible teaches that Jesus is God, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, the Bible does not teach or imply that They are one essence or substance.

When I, as a Mormon, say that the Bible does not teach the Trinity, I mean number 2 above.

It would appear from what I've read on RF, than when some folks say the Bible does not teach the Trinity, they mean number 1 above.

So, to my Muslim friends, I say that I firmly believe the Bible affirms that Jesus is God and affirms the oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

To my Christian friends, I say that I don't believe the oneness spoken of in the Bible means one essence, but rather it means a perfect unity or harmony.

Jesus referred to Himself as "I Am". Some of the hearing disbelievers were outraged when they heard Jesus say this, because they knew what Jesus meant. He was declaring that He is the same "I Am" who appeared to Moses, the very God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

In John 17, Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one. Verse 21 says:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Jesus was praying that his disciples would be "one" with each other and "one" with God, just like the Father and Son are one. He was not praying that His disciples would become one essence or substance with each other or with God. He was praying that they would become perfectly unified in love and purpose, just as the Father and Son are unified in love and purpose.

This prayer of Jesus shows that when God refers to "oneness", He's speaking of being united in perfect love, harmony, and purpose, rather than being a single essence or substance.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by athanasius

They are 3 really distinct personages! Christians teach this. But we also teach they are one in their essence, and nature.

No, Trinitarians teach this.

The bible alludes to this in a implicit way but there is no explicit evidence biblically.

So in fact it is merely an interpitation problem, and since there is no evidence biblically then why is it your doctrine?

And why would something need to be in the bible to be true anyway? Apostolic Tradition(the oral word of God) and the Catholic Church and her councils(Gods Church and his councils) made this fact known explicitly.

So, have you ever seen what happens to words that are not written down? they get changed, altered and eventually get perverted from thier original meaning. When the Nicene Creed was voted not every single one of them even believed it but becsaue of Emporer constantine, it was put in place as a document to "descibe the nature and divinity of God"

We Catholics Do call the Holy blessed Trinity the Godhead. So to us there is no argument. Rome has spoken the case is closed, the matter is at a end. So we don;t worry about this. But then again why would we? We have been dealing with non-trinitarian heretics for almost 2000 years.

So because "Rome" spoke some babble the case is closed? It apparently Didn't come from God, it's a man-made tradition that isn't even supported biblically. Oh, but because you think you have authority over God on the earth it's okay, I see. nevermind.

[kmkemp]

Originally Posted by 123

thts because all ur arguments posed either are lame or tht u dont have arguments...

I should have probably stopped reading right there. What argument have I presented? I posted a link to a quote from C.S. Lewis, who has written some of the best theological material of the past few hundred years.

Originally Posted by 123

the qur'an tells us 'come to common terms with one another' ,so our point of comming on common terms, common grounds firstly is prayer and worship to tht single,imageless, god.........

Or calling one another's non-existent arguments lame, apparently.

Originally Posted by 123

when the late sheikh deedat challenged the pope on a religious dialogue 'the bible or qur'an:which is god's word' ur pope

Huh? Do you understand anything about the religion you are talking about here?

Originally Posted by 123

i am at loss to say refused publicly making excuses ...deedat's arguments were on the above points i said and even many more whose answers, none of u christians have........

Is that what you've been told??? Try reading this site. There are plenty of answers out there. I'm sure the Pope is better schooled in theology than I am. =)

When you attack someone else's view without even trying to understand where it came from, you are doing little more than making yourself look like a bigot. At the very least, it will be an educational exercise. What do you have to lose?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Captain Civic

Let's see if this analogy sticks.

Let's say, for argument's sake, that there are three organs to the human body. The brain, the heart, and the lungs. Now, each organ is separate. They are themselves a separate entity. But, they all work together for a single purpose, in harmony with each other. The lungs bring in oxygen to keep the brain and heart alive, the heart pumps the blood which sends the oxygen to the brain and lungs, and the brain orchestrates the activities of the other organs, which could not operate if it was removed.

They are separate, but they are all part of one cohesive whole. They work together to promote and sustain life.

Well, it's a fairly decent analogy actually, but it seems to more accurately depict the LDS view of God than the Trinitarian view of God. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in will and purpose, one in mind and heart. That's what your analogy appears to be demonstrating. Is that what you believe? What about the "one in substance" or "one in essense" verbiage? How do you view those phrases?