Christians: How to Save More Souls (Jesus Christ, reject, gospel, salvation)

[cardero]

Ronald writes: Was He just talking to hear the sound of His voice, when He said to store up treasure in heaven? Huh? Or did He mean to store up treasure in heaven?

I have never personally "heard" these "words" come from GOD's "mouth". Great, now I have just exhausted my "allowance" to use quotation marks. Well what do ya K(NOW), I had two left.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

I have heard many Christians express their opinion that:

1. All those who accept Jesus are saved
2. All those who reject Jesus are not saved
and
3. All those who never hear 1. and 2. are saved (so for example, some tribesman in Africa who hasn't even heard of Christianity, much less the divinity of Christ).

I have never heard any Christian or anyone else express point number 3. What I have heard is that those who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel are not automatically damned. They still have the opportunity for salvation by some other means. That is not the same thing as your number three and thus your argument does not follow.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

I have heard many Christians express their opinion that:

1. All those who accept Jesus are saved
2. All those who reject Jesus are not saved
and
3. All those who never hear 1. and 2. are saved (so for example, some tribesman in Africa who hasn't even heard of Christianity, much less the divinity of Christ).

If these things are true, then all Christians who truly want to save peoples' souls should keep Jesus' divinity, etc. a secret. Every person who goes through life without hearing the Gospel is another soul saved, and every time you tell a person about Jesus you are endangering their soul. By preaching and doing missionary work, you are in fact being counter productive to your objective of saving more souls!

P.S. -- I confine my post to Christians, but I'm sure it applies to some Muslims and people of other faiths as well.

Spinks,

I would for choice #4 that we cannot know the Heaven/Hell status of a non-Christian with any degree of certainty .

I heard it said like this:

Life is like a boat that's out on cold waters. There is, unfortunately, a shipwreck. The people are out drifting in the cold water, and a rescue ship (the Body of Christ...the Church) comes up. These people may choose to get in the ship, or they may choose to drift in the cold water. On the ship, they can be relatively safe. Out in the water, though, they have only driftwood and hypothermia. The prospects are rather bleak there, but they aren't nonexistant. Those on driftwood may actually find their way to shore, but a great many will die.

We simply cannot know.

I would further add that it isn't a matter of simply punishment and retribution. My Church teaches that God literally is Hell, and it is who we are that determines how we experience Him. As a result, if someone is out of kelter, they won't like what they get. However, if someone is in harmony there, they will experience God as blissful. Since this is something that takes time and is difficult (how long...that depends on the person), then we can never know who is what, and we certainly shouldn't judge any single individual.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by No*s

The people are out drifting in the cold water, and a rescue ship (the Body of Christ...the Church) comes up. These people may choose to get in the ship, or they may choose to drift in the cold water.

No*s--I like the rest of your post, but this analogy was just terrible. If you're going to make the choice as clear cut as choosing whether or not to board a rescue ship, why don't you at least take into account other religions. How about a thousand rescue ships representing every religion in the world, each claiming that the other rescue ships are on a secret mission to enslave you, and each asking for you to join the ship permanently if they help 'rescue' you?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

No*s--I like the rest of your post, but this analogy was just terrible. If you're going to make the choice as clear cut as choosing whether or not to board a rescue ship, why don't you at least take into account other religions. How about a thousand rescue ships representing every religion in the world, each claiming that the other rescue ships are on a secret mission to enslave you, and each asking for you to join the ship permanently if they help 'rescue' you?

Because I can't. The rescue ship is the Church, and there isn't more than one of those. Other religions (and even denominations) are like the various pieces of material we may grab hold of. It doesn't say a person is damned, but it also doesn't paint a rosey picture. Sorry that I can't paint one better than that. It would require I cease being an Orthodox Christian to do so .

[No*s]

Repeat with me three times, "I hate GUI-based browsers, I hate GUI-based browsers, I hate GUI-based browsers." I use Vi to edit text, and the ctrl-w command deletes a preceding word. In console browsers, I'm either using Vi to write, or it does nothing. In GUI-based browsers, it kills the window. I think you can guess what I did on this second response...(I'm actually going to download Java now so I can use an extension and have my Vi here, this is the last straw lol). I should hope you will forgive this needed follow-up coming late on account of that. Killing my own work is very frustrating.

I thought about this, and gave some of the mechanical reasons "why," but they aren't sufficient. My apologies Spinks, and I realized it after the fact...and then killed my work *growl, mutter, mutter*.

In Orthodoxy, man's problem isn't some inherited guilt. The view on this ranges from "Oh, that's such poor theology...turning God into an unforgiving brute" to that it's a heresy. Instead, it's imperfection and the loss of union with God. Salvation is becoming part of the body of Christ, and restoring this union.

This is done through several means, but not least of which is the Eucharist. This, in turn, is brought to us from the bishop (usually through the priest), who receives special power from Christ to do this. The transformation occurs over time, and is dependant on the healing and restoration of the person before it all the way back to Christ, who is obviously the fount.

Outside the Church, this special, liturgical dispensation of grace isn't present. It doesn't matter if it's Hindu or Protestant, they aren't part of the Body of Christ. They aren't hopeless, but they aren't part of the Body. No other religion claims this Incarnate God in order to fix things up.

Think of all of us having a fatal disease that nearly always kills, and a physician comes and trains a few men on how to give the medicine. These men in turn will train others, and so on. If the medicine isn't right, the disease isn't treated...and for whatever reason, God chose to dispense this through the Church.

I know that makes it clear is mud probably, but I hope it's better than the last one . I apologize again for that. I wasn't thinking, and was composing an article for the articles section, which I hope to have done and checked in a day or two. My mind wasn't on it, and it was a brisk and inappropriate reply.

[Mr Spinkles]

No problem, No*s. Good luck on your article.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

I have heard many Christians express their opinion that:

1. All those who accept Jesus are saved
2. All those who reject Jesus are not saved and
3. All those who never hear 1. and 2. are saved (so for example, some tribesman in Africa who hasn't even heard of Christianity, much less the divinity of Christ).

If these things are true, then all Christians who truly want to save peoples' souls should keep Jesus' divinity, etc. a secret. Every person who goes through life without hearing the Gospel is another soul saved, and every time you tell a person about Jesus you are endangering their soul. By preaching and doing missionary work, you are in fact being counter productive to your objective of saving more souls!

P.S. -- I confine my post to Christians, but I'm sure it applies to some Muslims and people of other faiths as well.

Jesus commanded the apostles to teach all that they were commanded to the disciples and so on. One thing they were taught was how to save people. so if the Christian fails to try to make new discples, then they are abandoning their faith.

Christians: Don't tell people and then you lose out of being saved.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

No problem, No*s. Good luck on your article.

Thanks. My biggest worry is text-size...it's so small in posts, so I hope it isn't on the article. We'll find out in a day or two, though .

[retrorich]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

I don't think anyone really knows what happens to people who die without hearing the Gosple, it is my personal belief that these people after death have the chance to recieve Jesus Christ as their savior.

The same thing happens to ALL people who die. They become part of the food chain and/or the chemical composition of the planet. Life after death exists only in the minds of wishful thinkers.