Vedanta and science (mystic, Buddhism, reincarnation, followers, translation)

[doppelgänger]

This thread is inspired by one started in the Vedanta DIR by Aupmanyav. He raises some very interesting questions and ideas that I thought non-Vedanta members might be interested in discussing too.

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Aupmanyav wrote:

'Advaita Vedanta has influenced modern scientists. Erwin Schrödinger claimed to have been inspired by Vedanta in his discovery of quantum theory. According to his biographer Walter Moore: "The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrödinger and Werner Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on superimposed, inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One.". Additionally, Fritjof Capra's book The Tao of Physics is one among several that pursues this viewpoint as it investigates the relationship between modern, particularly quantum, physics and the core philosophies of various Eastern religions, including Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. Unfortunately, such writings by western authors often run the risk of oversimplifying and ignoring important differences between Eastern religions. For instance, pre-modern Vedantins argued for the existence of an eternal self, or atman, while Buddhists have denied this possibility. But as more and more translations of Vedantic works become available, modern students of the many schools of Vedanta are able make up their own minds regarding the claims of authors like Schrödinger and Capra.'

As mentioned in the sticky (I appreciate the efforts of Feathers in Hair, the writer to explain it without any distortion), I have considered the various questions are have arrived at these conclusions. Your discussions are welcome:

1. Existence of God: Since one substrate constitutes what is percieved as substance, energy, and gives rise to time, and space, there is no reason to pre-suppose anything like God. As per our current knowledge the substrate is quantum field. I will be open to further advances in science (if it proves there are nine type of strings, I will adjust my belief accordingly). Human happiness or misery does not effect any change in the way of things, so I guess that this substrate has no connection with human affairs, other than the common changes in quantum field. It is not cruel, it is not kind, it is not miserly, it is not munificient, etc. Trying to impute human attributes to it has consistently failed in history.

2. Ribirth/Reincarnation: Again no reason to accept anything like that. Atoms coming from various sources make our beginning, during the time humans are in the womb and later in life, our constitution changes slowly, at death these atoms are recycled into many things.

3. Our consciousness: We percieve ourselves as something definite with particular trains of thought. Percieving ourselves as entities is a temporary and imaginary. Really we are just quantum fields. With our death, just as this entity ceases to exist, our consciousness also ceases to exist.

4. Meaning of life: None. Evolution will go on to (most probably) erase us from this planet where we are captives. We may go to moon, Venus, or Mars, but that is about all. It has done that with all the species, and there is no reason, why we should be exceptions. Our family, our society, our culture, our country, these things give us a purpose. If it is possible to go beyond these without harming these, we may do that, but not at their cost.

5. Karma: Nothing like it. No reason to accept the existence of heaven and hell. Our actions need to be tailored to the needs of our family, our society, and the world in general, because we are parts of it. That is termed in Hinduism as 'dharma' (roughly duty).

6. Enlightenment/Understanding: Closing your eyes or even your mind to thinking in meditation does not get you any understanding. It is clear and focussed thinking (meditation may help) which tells us the way of the world and our position in it. That is enlightenment, it is not that it changes us into a Godman or avatara. Enlightenment is when you have answers to all answerable questions. Nirvana, Moksha, does not mean going to heaven and be with your personal God, though becoming 'Brahmaleen' (being merged with Brahman, the substrate) is much closer (really, you were never separated from it).

I suppose that would be enough for a beginning. Let us discuss this to the best of our ability, as they say 'Tejaswi Navadheetamastu', without being acrimonious to each other, 'Ma Vidvishamahi'.

[Victor]

Just for clarification, does this come from the idea of there is no seperation from all there is and ourselves?

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

'Advaita Vedanta has influenced modern scientists. Erwin Schrödinger claimed to have been inspired by Vedanta in his discovery of quantum theory. According to his biographer Walter Moore: "The unity and continuity of Vedanta are reflected in the unity and continuity of wave mechanics. In 1925, the world view of physics was a model of a great machine composed of separable interacting material particles. During the next few years, Schrödinger and Werner Heisenberg and their followers created a universe based on superimposed, inseparable waves of probability amplitudes. This new view would be entirely consistent with the Vedantic concept of All in One."

I think you'll find this has much deeper (though typically regarded as heretical) roots in western thought as well. Are you familiar with the philosophical system of Baruch de Spinoza? He posits one indivisible "substance" - body and mind are one, the material and the consciousness are one - and this one substance is infinite. This was expanded upon by Nicholas of Cusa and Giordano Bruno into what would become the relativistic astronomy that got Galileo branded a heretic (and ultimately evolved into Relativity and Quantum Mechanics in modern physics).

"Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real." - Niels Bohr

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

1. Existence of God: Since one substrate constitutes what is percieved as substance, energy, and gives rise to time, and space, there is no reason to pre-suppose anything like God. As per our current knowledge the substrate is quantum field. I will be open to further advances in science (if it proves there are nine type of strings, I will adjust my belief accordingly).

"God" as the ineffable, infinite one substance neither "exists" nor does it not "exist," as "existence" is predicated on "difference." Substance without form cannot be said to "exist" because things exist through the forms given them and I only experience existing things through their symbolic forms (including the experience of "I"). Yet, even in Quantum Mechanics, we see the effects of a non-local hidden variable - a unified, unfragmented and therefore unapproachable substance upon which all form, thought and knowledge are projected.

"Therefore, opposing features belong only to those things which can be comparatively greater and lesser; they befit these things in different ways; [but they do] not at all [befit] the absolutely Maximum, since it is beyond all opposition. Therefore, because the absolutely Maximum is absolutely and actually all things which can be (and is so free of all opposition that the Minimum coincides with it), it is beyond both all affirmation and all negation. And it is not, as well as is, all that which is conceived to be; and it is, as well as is not, all that which is conceived not to be. But it is a given thing in such way that it is all things; and it is all things in such way that it is no thing." - Nicholas of Cusa

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

2. Ribirth/Reincarnation: Again no reason to accept anything like that. Atoms coming from various sources make our beginning, during the time humans are in the womb and later in life, our constitution changes slowly, at death these atoms are recycled into many things.

Literally, no. Symbolically as representing the endless of process of change that is mistaken for static "being" it can be invaluable. Changes aren't permanent. But change is.

"The universe comprises all being in a totality; for nothing that exists is outside or beyond infinite being, as the latter has no outside or beyond . . . This entire globe, this star, not being subject to death, and dissolution and annihilation being impossible anywhere in Nature, from time to time renews itself by changing and altering all its parts. There is no absolute up or down, as Aristotle taught; no absolute position in space; but the position of a body is relative to that of other bodies. Everywhere there is incessant relative change in position throughout the universe, and the observer is always at the centre of things." - Giordano Bruno

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

3. Our consciousness: We percieve ourselves as something definite with particular trains of thought. Percieving ourselves as entities is a temporary and imaginary. Really we are just quantum fields. With our death, just as this entity ceases to exist, our consciousness also ceases to exist.

Since consciousness and self didn't "exist" to begin with, it doesn't cease to exist either. Symbolically, I am the Universe gazing upon itself. Which is to say I am not but that I perceive. This perceived impermanent manifestation of the Universal Mind will be dispelled and take its illusions and fragments with it. Where "it" "goes" is beyond words, as consciousness and self is fashioned and constrained by symbols and thought.

"Thought runs you. Thought, however, gives false info that you are running it, that you are the one who controls thought. Whereas actually thought is the one which controls each one of us." - David Bohm

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

4. Meaning of life: None. Evolution will go on to (most probably) erase us from this planet where we are captives. We may go to moon, Venus, or Mars, but that is about all. It has done that with all the species, and there is no reason, why we should be exceptions. Our family, our society, our culture, our country, these things give us a purpose. If it is possible to go beyond these without harming these, we may do that, but not at their cost.

The meaning is whatever I want it to be and none. All the referents are relational and predicated on the fixed "I am" that imagines itself at the center of the Universe - the sly illusion at the heart of language. Even "Mars," "society" and "we" are as psychological as they are ontological/metaphysical.

“I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty or deformity, order or confusion. Only in relation to our imagination can things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused.” - Baruch de Spinoza

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

5. Karma: Nothing like it. No reason to accept the existence of heaven and hell. Our actions need to be tailored to the needs of our family, our society, and the world in general, because we are parts of it. That is termed in Hinduism as 'dharma' (roughly duty).

Certainty of forms is the foundation of duty. Uncertainty, the gift of shifting perspectives to see the picture within the picture and glimpse the effects of the picture without the picture, transcends duty and obligation. This gift carries the "observer" outside the fixed "self" around which duty, law and order are oriented. Some call it "love."

"Hence this life of yours which you are living is not merely a piece of the entire existence, but is, in a certain sense, the WHOLE; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in the sacred, mystic formula which is yet so simple and so clear: 'Tat Tvam asi' this is you...And not merely 'someday'; now, today, every day she is bringing you forth, not once, but thousands upon thousands of times, just as every day she engulfs you a thousand times over. For eternally and always there is only now, one and the same now; the present is the only thing that has no end." - Erwin Schrödinger

Originally Posted by Aupmanyav

6. Enlightenment/Understanding: Closing your eyes or even your mind to thinking in meditation does not get you any understanding. It is clear and focussed thinking (meditation may help) which tells us the way of the world and our position in it. That is enlightenment, it is not that it changes us into a Godman or avatara. Enlightenment is when you have answers to all answerable questions. Nirvana, Moksha, does not mean going to heaven and be with your personal God, though becoming 'Brahmaleen' (being merged with Brahman, the substrate) is much closer (really, you were never separated from it).

We awaken as we learn the questions. It is while I am convinced of the answers, and give birth to my world of static things, that I am asleep. Sleeping and awakening complete and define each other. One cannot be without the other.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Victor

Just for clarification, does this come from the idea of there is no seperation from all there is and ourselves?

It comes from the idea that there is and is not separation. That which I perceive is me, as borne out by mystics across all human cultures, including those practicing modern science.

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

4. Meaning of life: None. Evolution will go on to (most probably) erase us from this planet where we are captives. We may go to moon, Venus, or Mars, but that is about all. It has done that with all the species, and there is no reason, why we should be exceptions. Our family, our society, our culture, our country, these things give us a purpose. If it is possible to go beyond these without harming these, we may do that, but not at their cost.

This appears to me to be the crux. Whether or not there is meaning outside my mind is irrelevant. I exist and perceive the symbolic universe within my imprisoned view. Whatever meaning I create is a part of the whole; it is symbolic of a relationship between experiences that make up the scemata of my reality.

If there is no meaning outside my brain, then I am making something out of nothing. Something out of chaos. I am piecing together experiences that exist as long as I exist, and as far as I know, "I" will exist eternally, because "I" have existed for a moment.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Guitar's Cry

This appears to me to be the crux. Whether or not there is meaning outside my mind is irrelevant. I exist and perceive the symbolic universe within my imprisoned view. Whatever meaning I create is a part of the whole; it is symbolic of a relationship between experiences that make up the schemata of my reality.

Right. And that schemata is ever changing as new perceptions are accumulated and interpreted into the process of perspective.

Originally Posted by Guitar's Cry

If there is no meaning outside my brain, then I am making something out of nothing. Something out of chaos. I am piecing together experiences that exist as long as I exist, and as far as I know, "I" will exist eternally, because "I" have existed for a moment.

Beautifully put, GC. Each and every moment is aionios, "for the ages" - eternal.

[Random]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

1. Existence of God: Since one substrate constitutes what is percieved as substance, energy, and gives rise to time, and space, there is no reason to pre-suppose anything like God. As per our current knowledge the substrate is quantum field. I will be open to further advances in science (if it proves there are nine type of strings, I will adjust my belief accordingly). Human happiness or misery does not effect any change in the way of things, so I guess that this substrate has no connection with human affairs, other than the common changes in quantum field. It is not cruel, it is not kind, it is not miserly, it is not munificient, etc. Trying to impute human attributes to it has consistently failed in history.

2. Ribirth/Reincarnation: Again no reason to accept anything like that. Atoms coming from various sources make our beginning, during the time humans are in the womb and later in life, our constitution changes slowly, at death these atoms are recycled into many things.

3. Our consciousness: We percieve ourselves as something definite with particular trains of thought. Percieving ourselves as entities is a temporary and imaginary. Really we are just quantum fields. With our death, just as this entity ceases to exist, our consciousness also ceases to exist.

4. Meaning of life: None. Evolution will go on to (most probably) erase us from this planet where we are captives. We may go to moon, Venus, or Mars, but that is about all. It has done that with all the species, and there is no reason, why we should be exceptions. Our family, our society, our culture, our country, these things give us a purpose. If it is possible to go beyond these without harming these, we may do that, but not at their cost.

5. Karma: Nothing like it. No reason to accept the existence of heaven and hell. Our actions need to be tailored to the needs of our family, our society, and the world in general, because we are parts of it. That is termed in Hinduism as 'dharma' (roughly duty).

6. Enlightenment/Understanding: Closing your eyes or even your mind to thinking in meditation does not get you any understanding. It is clear and focussed thinking (meditation may help) which tells us the way of the world and our position in it. That is enlightenment, it is not that it changes us into a Godman or avatara. Enlightenment is when you have answers to all answerable questions. Nirvana, Moksha, does not mean going to heaven and be with your personal God, though becoming 'Brahmaleen' (being merged with Brahman, the substrate) is much closer (really, you were never separated from it).

I suppose that would be enough for a beginning. Let us discuss this to the best of our ability, as they say 'Tejaswi Navadheetamastu', without being acrimonious to each other, 'Ma Vidvishamahi'.

Yah, so that pretty much negates almost every non-material possibility there is. Ho-hum. My question remains the same: when do I get my superpowers back?

[Paraprakrti]

Vedanta 101:

No God, No soul, no karma, no meaning = Maya