Lucifer the "fallen angel from heaven" (moral, Earth)

[Vjkingjr]

Hey there everyone, my name is James! I am of a Christadelphian background and have recently been studying to be baptised. I would like to know what the mainstream christians think about this Lucifer satan person who was supposed to have been cast out of heaven. My thoughts on the matter are 1. If God is creater of all and is able to create/destroy anything - why then would he not destroy satan? I think God would like a piecefull world instead of a world filled with immorality - dont you?

2. I have read through ISAIAH 14-15 and what i noticed was, at the very start of ISAIAH 14 it sais "..3 It shall come to pass in the day the LORD gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say.. 12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground. You who weakened the nations!.." the king of Babylon at the time was Nebuchadnezzar..no fallen angel from heaven or satan. To go on it sais "13 For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: (note) I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol. To the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ' Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities.." Read on if you wish.

I interpret this as simply saying - even YOU Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon (the one that said in your own heart i am greater then God himself, who thinks he will exalt his throne above the stars of God and back to my note "..sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north [which is where they would be constantly attacking Israel from]) will be destroyed and brought to your grave where "11 The maggot is spread under you, and worms cover you"

Take a moment and read that chapter and let me know what you think!

Thanks everyone
James

[Victor]

Hey there James.

Welcome to the forum.

You can intruduce yourself here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...splay.php?f=21

As to the OP:

1. The same can be said of human existance, not just satan.

2. Will do.

[doppelgänger]

Tracing the word "lucifer" through various translations (OT but be sure to check out its use in the NT), yields some truly interesting results. Especially when you get to the Latin Vulgate.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I understand the concept of Satan as that aspect of ourselves that make us go astray from the purpose that God intended for us.

Universal existence has given birth to you for a purpose, for God´s sake give your life to it!!

[Vjkingjr]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Tracing the word "lucifer" through various translations (OT but be sure to check out its use in the NT), yields some truly interesting results. Especially when you get to the Latin Vulgate.

Thanks for the tip

I do believe the OT was translated in Hebrew. However the latin translation is heosphoros - meaning dawn bearer. The Hebrew translation is heilel ben-shachar meaning "Helel (bright one) son of Shachar (dawn). Helel, the morning star was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god Shachar, god of the dawn. Isaiah 14:12 is translated "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" in the A.S.V translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word ben as "son" and the Hebrew word shahar as "morning." The 21st Century King James translates it as "Lucifer, son of the morning".
I believe in Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, to allude to the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate.

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?

Thats in summary.. I will have a look at the NT >.<

Cheers Vj

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Vjkingjr

Thats in summary.. I will have a look at the NT >.<

Cheers Vj

http://artfl.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ph...&KWSSPRLIM=500

Take a look at the English translation and who is referred to as "lucifer" in 2 Peter in the Vulgate.

[Vjkingjr]

aaahh i seee the greek translation of lucifer in Isaiah 14 matches up with the latin translation of 2Peter 1:19 .. So if this was a proverb supposed to be delivered to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) why would it be reffering to an angel?

Its 7:30am in the morning here and i haven't had any sleep all night! I should hop off to bed thanks for the info - look forward to continuing our chat :-)

take it easy
v.j

[Ðanisty]

Originally Posted by Vjkingjr

Thanks for the tip

I do believe the OT was translated in Hebrew. However the latin translation is heosphoros - meaning dawn bearer. The Hebrew translation is heilel ben-shachar meaning "Helel (bright one) son of Shachar (dawn). Helel, the morning star was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god Shachar, god of the dawn. Isaiah 14:12 is translated "How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning!" in the A.S.V translating Hebrew Helel as "day-star" and the Hebrew word ben as "son" and the Hebrew word shahar as "morning." The 21st Century King James translates it as "Lucifer, son of the morning".
I believe in Isaiah, this title is specifically used, in a prophetic vision, to allude to the king of Babylon's pride and to illustrate his eventual fate.

14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
14:12 How have you fallen from the heavens, O glowing morning star; been cut down to the ground O conqueror of nations?

Thats in summary.. I will have a look at the NT >.<

Cheers Vj

Wow, you know a good bit...lol. I'm impressed. I'm not a Christian, by the way. I'm a Luciferian.

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

http://artfl.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ph...&KWSSPRLIM=500

Take a look at the English translation and who is referred to as "lucifer" in 2 Peter in the Vulgate.

Originally Posted by Vjkingjr

aaahh i seee the greek translation of lucifer in Isaiah 14 matches up with the latin translation of 2Peter 1:19 .. So if this was a proverb supposed to be delivered to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) why would it be reffering to an angel?

Its 7:30am in the morning here and i haven't had any sleep all night! I should hop off to bed thanks for the info - look forward to continuing our chat :-)

take it easy
v.j

Okay, somebody MUST fill in the gaps for me! Where is the English translation? I didn't see it? I need to know what you guys are seeing.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by vjkingjr

So if this was a proverb supposed to be delivered to the king of Babylon (Nebuchadnezzar) why would it be refering to an angel?

You have heard of simile, metaphor, analogy, parable, etc?

Well, Isaiah 14 passage was originally meant for the king of Babylon...It was not meant for any Nebuchadezzar (there are 2 kings with the same name); for no actual name of the king was given, Vjkingjr.

If we are to believe that the "book of Isaiah" was really written by Isaiah himself, then it was written before Nebuchadezzar II (c. 630-c. 561 BC) but after Nebuchadezzar I (reign c. 1119-c. 1098 BC). Isaiah was a prophet of Judah in the 2nd half of the 8th century BC, ie. c. 740-690 BC. Please don't assume, just because it write of "King of Babylon" that it has anything to do with either Nebuchadezzars.

I believed that passage in Isaiah referred to the King of Babylon, not Satan.

During the time of Isaiah's prophethood, Assyria was the power in the Middle East, not Babylon. Tiglath-pileser III ruled in 745–727 BC. Tiglath-pileser had appointed Nabonassar as king of Babylonia, but Tiglath-pileser crowned himself as king of Babylonia, after the death of Nabonassar in 729, and I believed that he (Tiglath-pileser) was the one referred to in the OT as Pul. Tiglath-pileser was followed by Shalmaneser V (726–722) and Sargon II (real name is Sharru-kin, 721-705, the one who captured Samaria). All 3 of these Assyrian emperors became kings of Babylonia.

If Isaiah was really writing of the King of Babylonia, then it must be either Nabu-nasir (or Nabonassar, 747–734), or Merodach-Baladan II (who rule briefly in 721–710 BC; although Merodach-Baladan was not Babylonian, but an Aramean). Babylonian kings had only enjoyed brief period of independence during the Neo-Assyrian period.

As to the passage in 2 Peter 1:19...well, it was written long after Isaiah, and Christians and Jews are living in the post-Exilic period, where they were heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism via through their exile in Babylon, and later through direct contact with the Persians themselves. Also Jewish literature have been also influenced by Greek literature during the writings during the times of writings of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha (300 BC - AD 50), such as the Books of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, etc).

So I really can't take anything seriously of what Peter or other disciples that have written about Satan or Lucifer.