Atheistic Logic (morals, punishment, hell, eternity, bible)

[kmkemp]

I have heard more than I care to an argument that goes along these lines:

God is sadistic so why should I worship Him? If he tortures people for eternity, then I would gladly choose hell rather than spend eternity with Him. There is no justice or love or mercy in an infinite punishment for a finite crime (sin).

I hope that was an adequate paraphrase. The line of arguments quickly develops into a mockery of Bible verses about God's unsearchable ways. My purpose is to ask a question. Why do you (if you dare to use the above arguments) dare to question God? Let's look at the situation another way. One of two things are true.

1. God exists.
2. God doesn't exist.

I hope it is obvious that if God doesn't exist, we need not make assumptions about what He would or would not do. It is a nonissue. He doesn't exist. That is all that needs to be said. You can't prove that He doesn't exist by telling what you think He would do if He did exist and showing why that that doesn't actually happen.

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

Romans 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

If God exists and He created you, then your logic and mind is only a result of His higher mind designing you thus. The key word there is 'higher'. If God exists, then His ways are surely better than ours. After all, we are still incapable of creating anything. An atheist would do much better to not dabble in philosophical nonsense such as this, in my opinion.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

However, if God does exist, then how can you dare to question His decisions? Your very being is only because of Him.

Very simple. We are the ones facing infinite torture because of those decisions. If He doesn't want to be questioned, He should live up to His own standards.

EDIT: For the record, I am not an atheist, but I have the same objection.

[Papersock]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

I hope it is obvious that if God doesn't exist, we need not make assumptions about what He would or would not do. It is a nonissue. He doesn't exist. That is all that needs to be said. You can't prove that He doesn't exist by telling what you think He would do if He did exist and showing why that that doesn't actually happen.

Even if he doesn't exist, people still worship this concept of god. And other people are likely to question the morals of a person who is willing to worship such a god.

If God exists and He created you, then your logic and mind is only a result of His higher mind designing you thus. The key word there is 'higher'. If God exists, then His ways are surely better than ours. After all, we are still incapable of creating anything. An atheist would do much better to not dabble in philosophical nonsense such as this, in my opinion.

If God exists then he does not live up to his own standards of morality and forgiveness. Disagreeing with the moral practices of a god (or ruler) is a valid reason not to worship him. You can't be forced to respect someone.

Anyone should be allowed to dabble in any philosophical issues they want.

[kmkemp]

But I don't understand how you telling God what He should or should not do helps you in any way. The fact is that you do exist and that is not going to change. If God does exist and you choose to not believe in Him, you will be punished all the same no matter how hypocritical you think He might be. If He doesn't exist, then you need not contemplate what He should or should not do.

edit: this was a reply to Storm. Sorry, Papersock is quick. $

[Jeremiah]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

If He doesn't exist,

I find it refreshing you are willing to ponder the concept.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by kmkemp

But I don't understand how you telling God what He should or should not do helps you in any way. The fact is that you do exist and that is not going to change. If God does exist and you choose to not believe in Him, you will be punished all the same no matter how hypocritical you think He might be. If He doesn't exist, then you need not contemplate what He should or should not do.

It's not about helping myself; it's about having standards. I do not submit to abusers. If that means I go to Hell, I go with head held high, because I will not abandon my ethics out of fear.

Luckily, I do not believe God is so petty and ignoble as to damn me, or anyone who seeks truth and lives morally.

[Bishka]

Originally Posted by Storm

Luckily, I do not believe God is so petty and ignoble as to damn me, or anyone who seeks truth and lives morally.

Neither do I.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by Storm

It's not about helping myself; it's about having standards. I do not submit to abusers. If that means I go to Hell, I go with head held high, because I will not abandon my ethics out of fear.

I would suggest to you, Storm, that the only reason you can say this is because you don't take the possibility of eternal, unimaginably horrible torture very seriously.

I think kmkemp is absolutely right. If God is defined such that whatever He says and does is an absolute standard of goodness, and if the god of the Bible exists, then by definition sending people to hell and killing innocents and so forth is a good thing. An atheist appealing to how awful such a god would be if he existed is just as unconvincing as a theist appealing to how awful it would be if there were no god.

However, when not being used as an argument against god's existence, I think a critique of the morality of the god of the Bible, especially in the context of a mythological figure, is perfectly valid.

[ChristineES]

There is one more thing: Only God knows our spirits. Since I believe in God, I can say that God knows more about our spirits than ourselves. God knows when we deny Him with just our bodies but accept Him in our spirit. He also knows we someone denies Him with both spirit and body. And lastly He knows who accepts Him with his body but not with his spirit.